PAF SAM based Air Defense System - News, Discussion & Updates

[Bentley777]

Pakistan will not fight long war. That’s playing right in to Indian hand.

Pakistan need to deter India by maximum damage in minimum time. And if they want to escalate to nuclear war then so be it.

What are we smoking If IWT got finished you will have to fight long war india will not give it in 3 days .

 

[Rational Philosopher]

Pakistan will not fight long war. That’s playing right in to Indian hand.

Pakistan need to deter India by maximum damage in minimum time. And if they want to escalate to nuclear war then so be it.

I think this is a very unreliable assumption to fight a war on. As India's global influence and economy grows, it can continue to fight a war for longer and resist any pressure to end it.

Nuclear war risk aside that is.

 

[Tomcats]

China will, but not the suppliers of the CAMM platform.

China will not either, at least for the foreseeable future, they need their own stocks for a potential war with Taiwan, US and its Allies.

 

[Ak01]

I am not too sure about Dhiel, the Germans are not the right partner. Last thing we want is to fall back into the same trap of sanctions and arm twisting that we faced in the 90s and early 2000s.

Additionally, the Chinese would be more willing to provide tech transfers and local production.

On top, it would be even better to expedite the local LOMADS and a shorter ranged quick reaction, terminal defence system based in the tech learnt from it. On paper it’s seems quite capable. It’s testing has been going on for quite sometime now.

Germany has been quite reliable. They also provided the sensors and torps for the agosta upgrade and would have greenlit the fincantieri u212 push to the PN.

I wouldn’t hold my breath for GIDS Lomads yet, probably looking at surface launched SD10s

 

[Harbyharb]

I am dismissive of FM3000 because it is simply not capable of dealing with the threat we face to a satisfactory degree based off of what little is available out there. It’s a system that suffers with the same limitations as other Chinese missiles

Can you elaborate?
What kind of threat do you think the FM3000 is not capable of dealing with? Because in its intended role as either accompanying Area AD for ground units or as terminal intercept against saturated attack, I do not have any openly available sources that suggests that it cannot handle the typical suite of Indian stand-off munitions, from BrahMos to Scalp

Based on our discussions so far I'm guessing you got FM3000 and FK-3 mixed up, the latter seemed more fitting of your assumption for a SARH, inexpensive, longer ranged missile that, actually would still handle typical high altitude air breathing targets like Kh-61/BrahMos fine.

 

[Bilal]

Germany has been quite reliable. They also provided the sensors and torps for the agosta upgrade and would have greenlit the fincantieri u212 push to the PN.

I wouldn’t hold my breath for GIDS Lomads yet, probably looking at surface launched SD10s

not after big submarine deals with india. There is a real chance of them going French. Plus the usual European risk of which party is in power and the arms export ideology it has.

Side note DK10 (sl SD10 with beefed up motor) is pretty good too, as you noted. Newer option is LY70, which at one pointed was noted already in the pipeline but it’s reaction time is longer.

 

[Great Mal]

not after big submarine deals with india. There is a real chance of them going French. Plus the usual European risk of which party is in power and the arms export ideology it has.

Side note DK10 (sl SD10 with beefed up motor) is pretty good too, as you noted. Newer option is LY70, which at one pointed was noted already in the pipeline but it’s reaction time is longer.

I think Pakistan can ask for local production of CAMM family if both the army & navy place orders.

The Italians will be willing to oblige.

 

[Bilal]

I think Pakistan can ask for local production of CAMM family if both the army & navy place orders.

The Italians will be willing to oblige.

IF that happens. It would be the best fit.

 

[Great Mal]

IF that happens. It would be the top fit.

IMHO it is possible, but then again couple of dudes dreaming online & the armies choices are two different things.

Going by current trends the army will likely choose a Chinese option

 

[Bilal]

IMHO it is possible, but then again couple of dudes dreaming online & the armies choices are two different things.

Going by current trends the army will likely choose a Chinese option

What was once a dream are now active systems. Now we look beyond

 

[Quwa]

Exactly, we are entering new era. Time to readjust NFC to provinces. Reduce army size.

Double the budget for PAF, Navy and rocket force. Start preparing for all out war now.

I'd keep the Army size as is and, instead, double down on making infantry, artillery, armour, and aviation bigger and better.

To get more funding to the Air Force and Navy, just tax the freeloaders, i.e. feudals, agriculturalists, retailers/wholesale, and real-estate. They each underpay in taxes, while the tax burden falls on manufacturing and services (middle class salaried workers, exporters).

Just a national security tax of 10-15% on agriculture, land, and retail will give you $12-18 B a year in additional funding.

Overall, trying to optimize a $11 B annual budget and a couple billion of additional development money isn't going to cut it against a threat that to pours $80 B+ a year.

Pak will need to up funding very, very aggressively eventually, and the ones who don't pay into defence right now have the most to lose once the rivers dry up due to India's dams (agriculturalists), or when the domestic consumer base crashes (retail), or when prime real estate loses value.

 

[MastanKhan]

Absolutely agree with you -- once PAF had local air superiority and took out the S-400s, it should’ve immediately transitioned into full-spectrum SEAD & DEAD ops for the next 24–36 hours. Heck if it was Israel in Pakistan's position they would've done much worse. Pakistan needs that mindset.

Within the 200–300 km belt, they had a golden window to cripple India’s western military posture.

This could’ve included:

1. Precision strikes on IAF airbases (Adampur, Ambala, Bhatinda) to crater runways in a much more crippling manner and disable fuel/ammo storage.

2. Hitting radar systems and SAM sites (Akash, Spyder, QRSAM) using drones, glide bombs, and decoys.

3. Targeting Pralay and BrahMos missile TELs with loitering munitions.

4. Decapitating brigade/division HQs to disrupt command flow.

5. Destroying key logistical nodes to paralyse forward deployments.

Strategically, this wouldn't just delay IAF recovery -- it would send a message to arms exporters: "Sell to India, lose your credibility." That reputational blow would ripple across every future Indian procurement.

Hi,

There is an iota of COWARDICE in the hearts of pakistani generals---.

They are AFRAID to deliver the final blow when the enemy is down---.

If you look at their faces, demeanor, personality---they can definitely defend the nation---but cannot protect it from attacks---.

They can't give the final blow---they can't deliver the COUPE DE GRACE---.

They are EXTREMELY CASUAL in their interviews when talking about the enemy---.

They are taking the enemy as " NOTHING "---and for that reason they cannot FINISH THEM OFF---.

 

[FuturePAF]

But you're limited in what you can actually do softkill wise.

attacks against the seeker in terminal stage- okay yes, but this applies in real limited scenarios (attacking a moving target)- plus, brahmos now has an aesa seeker, making the task far harder.

Land attack BrahMos use a RLG based INS+GPS, so against static targets, in GPS denied and also onboard seeker denied scenario- the reality is a successful kill will still occur, just with degraded accuracy.

BrahMos is probably better to be defeated via hardkill sys like CAMM. I dont think softkill measures will be of much use, except for perhaps to the PN.

It’s about both. Spoofing the system as much as possible with soft kill, hoping it lowers the hit probability of a salvo of enemy missiles and then firing off missiles (hard kill) against the missiles that look headed towards your installations and assets.

 

[Ali_Baba]

Episode 1 is up. We'll go into the BrahMos and how to stop it in Ep 2, will be out on Friday June 06th, with a PN-focused episode on June 13th.

Indo-Pak Conflict | The Fight Pakistan Wanted vs What It Got

Our analysts discuss how while Pakistan’s newly acquired HQ-9BEs from China helped, its air defence system had trouble stopping the BrahMos.

quwa.org

Hi @Quwa - looks like you have put the podcast on open access basis on the website, vs behind a paywall. Do you have Youtube channel? Would make it easier for people to listen to it off line versus the website? ( i appreciate you have made it available on a bunch of podcast services ).

 

[jehangir]

In my opinion it was our failure to proper use of our short range ballistic and cruise missiles and loitering munition. Either due to less quantity or purpose was not defined. Quwa Article also highlighted ssoem weeknes.

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We should defend Brahmos current or future variants but we should have equivalent variants, in number and with deadly destruction power which can put same havoc on their strategic targets just like our PAF have proper strategy to counter IAF. It's potty that we have used multi barrel rocket launchers lately and before damage has been done. Command and control bunker should be moved deep into mountains as recent satellite images exposure of one at HQ seems very vulnerable.