PAF SAM based Air Defense System - News, Discussion & Updates

[Rational Philosopher]

A controversial take, AD as we have seen in the Iran conflict. Has limitations against inbound missiles. Limitations in intercept and worst yet the reloading means you are out of the fight. If you are out then you can be eliminated. Iron Dome has been coined the term Iron Sieve.

need a better strategy overall, multi layer AD isn't the silver bullet. need locations where fighter can land and take off like Sweden has done.

need a robust rocket force. attack attack attack, defensive posture is not going to work any longer. in the next attack they will eliminate all air bases then do the main attack.

The last bout wasn't anything to cheer about.

Agreed, this is what I said in another thread discussing this conflict.

While having layered air defence is good, the best deterrence is the ability to inflict the same or greater offensive destruction in retaliation.

Simply put: No one is going to risk hitting you, if it means they get a bloody nose too. Same concept as MAD. Pakistan has to assure a conventional form of MAD.

- Effective offensive strike capability
- Dispersal operations, decoys, hardened well protected assets, tons of air strips to launch operations across the country (inspired from Sweden)
- Comfortable ability to survive a decapitation strike, and hit back.

 

[Path-Finder]

Agreed, this is what I said in another thread discussing this conflict.

While having layered air defence is good, the best deterrence is the ability to inflict the same or greater offensive destruction in retaliation.

Simply put: No one is going to risk hitting you, if it means they get a bloody nose too. Same concept as MAD. Pakistan has to assure a conventional form of MAD.

- Effective offensive strike capability
- Dispersal operations, decoys, hardened well protected assets, tons of air strips to launch operations across the country (inspired from Sweden)
- Comfortable ability to survive a decapitation strike, and hit back.

Yes, Defensive strategy is no longer viable because the reliance on the tech we have been accustom to! has high probability to fail. Ukraine shows that, recent Iran counter attack shown that. The best western tech didn't have any muscle.

Strike and return to sender is the only strategy now. if Lahore, Islamabad and Karachi are venerable then Delhi and Mumbai are kosher.

Plus the vediq mentality is if you slap them 100x and they land 1x on you. They will proclaim that they didn't get hit and landed one upon you. As we have seen on this forum. this is a God Send, hit harder and claim a smaller attack.

Lastly, something that is deemed unnecessary but it isn't. Take the nation into account. tell the nation about the consequences, the effects and the aftermath of any conflict. Sadly the people in Pakistan are given 0 consideration by the ones that rule it from the shadows.

 

[Rational Philosopher]

Yes, Defensive strategy is no longer viable because the reliance on the tech we have been accustom to! has high probability to fail. Ukraine shows that, recent Iran counter attack shown that. The best western tech didn't have any muscle.

Strike and return to sender is the only strategy now. if Lahore, Islamabad and Karachi are venerable then Delhi and Mumbai are kosher.

Plus the vediq mentality is if you slap them 100x and they land 1x on you. They will proclaim that they didn't get hit and landed one upon you. As we have seen on this forum. this is a God Send, hit harder and claim a smaller attack.

Lastly, something that is deemed unnecessary but it isn't. Take the nation into account. tell the nation about the consequences, the effects and the aftermath of any conflict. Sadly the people in Pakistan are given 0 consideration by the ones that rule it from the shadows.

Yep! No air defence is 100%. Israel with the most advanced & costly systems in the world achieved 90% interception.

Best defence is offence. Pakistani SPD organisation need to sit with the service chiefs and come up with a coherent counter-strike policy and protocols in conventional realm.

Modern warfare as we have seen is fast moving, press buttons, high speed missiles in large numbers come crashing down. Strong planning, policies, protocols and early detection is key.

 

[Path-Finder]

Yep! No air defence is 100%. Israel with the most advanced & costly systems in the world achieved 90% interception.

Best defence is offence. Pakistani SPD organisation need to sit with the service chiefs and come up with a coherent counter-strike policy and protocols in conventional realm.

Modern warfare as we have seen is fast moving, press buttons, high speed missiles in large numbers come crashing down. Strong planning, policies, protocols and early detection is key.

iznotreal had the entire West and sadly Jordan helping with interception along the path. the Iranian strategy was good, use slower missiles in tandem with the good stuff. It gave nethenyahu piles.

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

@Path-Finder @Rationalist

The core issue is that Pakistan has historically relied on the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) to maintain offensive deterrence. However, with India’s deployment of a robust, multi-layered air defense system—including the S-400—Pakistan’s offensive capabilities are facing significant challenges.

India possesses advanced long-range air-launched missiles brahmosh and scalp-EG over 500km ranges, along with a substantial and superior inventory of conventional (non-nuclear) missiles. In contrast, Pakistan’s missile arsenal has primarily been developed for nuclear deterrence, leaving a gap in conventional strike options.

Moving forward this time, any potential Indian offensive will likely not commence with traditional IAF air strikes. Instead, India’s strategy will focus on degrading PAF’s operational capacity—targeting airbases and ground-based air assets to achieve air superiority. Additionally, India may attempt to neutralize Pakistan’s air defenses with the help of israel and their drones technology, which, compared to India’s, are less resilient.

If Pakistan intends to adopt an "offense as the best defense" doctrine, two critical imperatives emerge:

1. Counter-Air Defense Capability: Pakistan must develop or acquire advanced systems capable of disabling or bypassing India’s integrated air defense network (IADS), particularly the S-400.
2. Conventional Missile Parity/Superiority: Pakistan needs to enhance its conventional missile arsenal—both in quantity and quality—to match or surpass India’s. Presently, there is a significant disparity, with India making strides in hypersonic technologies (e.g., hypersonic cruise missiles and hypersonic glide vehicles), while Pakistan remains reliant on its Fatah series of conventional ballistic missiles.

To effectively deter India, Pakistan must shift toward a conventionally offensive, high-damage strategy, ensuring the capability to inflict substantial attrition in a non-nuclear scenario. This requires immediate doctrinal and technological modernization to close the existing asymmetry.

 

[PakShaheen_79]

This conflict happened only and only for one reason that conventional asymmetry between two forces grew to such an extent that India got overconfidence on its abilities about decimating Pakistani forces. While Pakistan remained focus on building PAF and PN capabilities by inducting big ticket items like J-10s, Block IIIs, Tughrul class frigate, Hangur class subs, Babar Class corvettes etc. A critical area of ADS got ignored though Pakistan did invest in top tier ADS like HQ-9 as well. With our current defense budget this is what could have been done. But real shortage appeared in our strike strength. Fatah series is good battlefield management weapons or against less defended fixed targets. Pakistan was lacking a credible surface or air launched LACM even in sub-sonic domain let alone supersonic like Brahmos and this is where all the difference in both nation's strike capabilities emerged. Plus, due to obvious issue, Pakistan had to remain very calculated in their strike. If you analyze all the Fatah launched videos you will never find a single launcher that fired all 8 missiles on it. Some fired 3 other 4. I never saw a video where single TEL launched all 8 of its missiles. F-2 was rumoured to be used but I couldn't come across a video of F-2 being used. So, both quality and quantity issues came to the fore on Pakistani side. PAF's performance in strikes is even more opaque. As per Khalid Chishti (former PAF officer) PAF delivered more tonnage in single day on 10th May 2025 than during the entire 17 days long war of 1965. But we never knew what was actually hit? BDA was completely absent from our side which added more frustration and doubts about claims made by Pakistani military.

 

[Path-Finder]

@Path-Finder @Rationalist

The core issue is that Pakistan has historically relied on the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) to maintain offensive deterrence. However, with India’s deployment of a robust, multi-layered air defense system—including the S-400—Pakistan’s offensive capabilities are facing significant challenges.

India possesses advanced long-range air-launched missiles brahmosh and scalp-EG over 500km ranges, along with a substantial and superior inventory of conventional (non-nuclear) missiles. In contrast, Pakistan’s missile arsenal has primarily been developed for nuclear deterrence, leaving a gap in conventional strike options.

Moving forward this time, any potential Indian offensive will likely not commence with traditional IAF air strikes. Instead, India’s strategy will focus on degrading PAF’s operational capacity—targeting airbases and ground-based air assets to achieve air superiority. Additionally, India may attempt to neutralize Pakistan’s air defenses with the help of israel and their drones technology, which, compared to India’s, are less resilient.

If Pakistan intends to adopt an "offense as the best defense" doctrine, two critical imperatives emerge:

1. Counter-Air Defense Capability: Pakistan must develop or acquire advanced systems capable of disabling or bypassing India’s integrated air defense network (IADS), particularly the S-400.
2. Conventional Missile Parity/Superiority: Pakistan needs to enhance its conventional missile arsenal—both in quantity and quality—to match or surpass India’s. Presently, there is a significant disparity, with India making strides in hypersonic technologies (e.g., hypersonic cruise missiles and hypersonic glide vehicles), while Pakistan remains reliant on its Fatah series of conventional ballistic missiles.

To effectively deter India, Pakistan must shift toward a conventionally offensive, high-damage strategy, ensuring the capability to inflict substantial attrition in a non-nuclear scenario. This requires immediate doctrinal and technological modernization to close the existing asymmetry.

AD are over rated BUT necessary, Ukraine/Russia, Iran/iznotreal war has shown that AD is like homeopathic medicine.
We find ourselves in a situation where we have an Air Force but Hopefully we have a decent and dedicated Rocket Force. Iran has the rocket power, But Air Force is non existent.
Pakistan needs to deliver high tonnage of ordnance into india and do it in high saturation. Iran's Rocket capability has soiled the nappies in tel aviv. That is very telling of the power of Rockets but it should not be at the cost of losing air superiority of your own territory.

SEAD/DEAD is an art that seems to have been demonstrated very well by PAF. Any radar that is switched on is like a torch turned on in the pitch black, its visible for miles.

In The future we need an expansive strategy. I am of the view that Navy must have an Air Force independent of PAF.

 

[Psyko70]

 

[Cookie Monster]

GIDS Road to Future​

LOMADS (Air Defence System Fully Autonomous Self-Propelled Truck-Mounted System)​

• Range: 7km – 100 km
• Altitude: 30m – 20 km
• Simultaneous targets engage 12
• Max Target Speed: 0.1 – 3 Mach
• Max Missile Speed: 5 Mach
• CFCM, MFR, 6 MLMs with 4 missiles each

View attachment 434

View attachment 436

Is this Pakistan's domestically developed product?

 

[Mohid Afzal]

Is this Pakistan's domestically developed product?

it is although it's not in production yet

 

[Cookie Monster]

Yes, Defensive strategy is no longer viable because the reliance on the tech we have been accustom to! has high probability to fail. Ukraine shows that, recent Iran counter attack shown that. The best western tech didn't have any muscle.

Strike and return to sender is the only strategy now. if Lahore, Islamabad and Karachi are venerable then Delhi and Mumbai are kosher.

Plus the vediq mentality is if you slap them 100x and they land 1x on you. They will proclaim that they didn't get hit and landed one upon you. As we have seen on this forum. this is a God Send, hit harder and claim a smaller attack.

Lastly, something that is deemed unnecessary but it isn't. Take the nation into account. tell the nation about the consequences, the effects and the aftermath of any conflict. Sadly the people in Pakistan are given 0 consideration by the ones that rule it from the shadows.

I agree with an offensive strategy...but for that Pakistan will have to make smart use of its resources. Pakistan isn't rich enough to compete with India on a one to one basis...
...so I suggest...focus on
- quality and integration(as we saw in 2019 and 2025)
- logistics and supplies(for long drawn out wars where u assume ur production capabilities will suffer..therefore build up large stockpiles of ammunition, artillery shells, stinger and javelin types of shoulder fired cheap missiles, cheap drones, etc).
- for top of the line qualitative edge...this is where Pakistan has to make a focused effort ..bcuz as stated earlier Pakistan can't match nor outspend India. Therefore I suggest Army and Navy going A2AD route...as in have a decent enough capability to hold and bog down any Indian offensive...
...and go all out on beefing up air force. The reason being that IF PAF can achieve air superiority over IAF and maintain that in a long drawn out war(assuming attrition)...then PA and PN will no longer have to just hold the line...and can actually go on the offensive. IA and IN without air cover will lose any quantitative and qualitative advantage they will have initially.

This was how Israel was able to overcome Arab armies when far outnumbered in the past wars.

 

[Rational Philosopher]

I agree with an offensive strategy...but for that Pakistan will have to make smart use of its resources. Pakistan isn't rich enough to compete with India on a one to one basis...
...so I suggest...focus on
- quality and integration(as we saw in 2019 and 2025)
- logistics and supplies(for long drawn out wars where u assume ur production capabilities will suffer..therefore build up large stockpiles of ammunition, artillery shells, stinger and javelin types of shoulder fired cheap missiles, cheap drones, etc).
- for top of the line qualitative edge...this is where Pakistan has to make a focused effort ..bcuz as stated earlier Pakistan can't match nor outspend India. Therefore I suggest Army and Navy going A2AD route...as in have a decent enough capability to hold and bog down any Indian offensive...
...and go all out on beefing up air force. The reason being that IF PAF can achieve air superiority over IAF and maintain that in a long drawn out war(assuming attrition)...then PA and PN will no longer have to just hold the line...and can actually go on the offensive. IA and IN without air cover will lose any quantitative and qualitative advantage they will have initially.

This was how Israel was able to overcome Arab armies when far outnumbered in the past wars.

The problem with this is that Israel could guarantee it always has a qualitative edge over Arabs because of a very strong global lobbying influence.

We can't really guarantee a qualitative edge, India can source from Europe's best competitive equipment + US + homemade designs. It's got just too much funds. Even if we focus on a single service like air force you still won't have a clear dominance.

 

[Ali_Baba]

View attachment 132464

Good to hear that the radar is working as expected, hopefully they can upgrade the van they are using to something a bit more industrial/military grade so that it can go into all the locations it needs to/should.

 

[Cookie Monster]

The problem with this is that Israel could guarantee it always has a qualitative edge over Arabs because of a very strong global lobbying influence.

We can't really guarantee a qualitative edge, India can source from Europe's best competitive equipment + US + homemade designs. It's got just too much funds. Even if we focus on a single service like air force you still won't have a clear dominance.

U r correct...however there's still a small window(about next 10ish years depending on how proactive India is)...
And that is of incompetence(IAF being a hodge podge of eastern and western equipment making integration hard)...
...this can be used to Pak's advantage(as it was done in 2019 and 2025). Pakistan essentially had air superiority a couple of hundred KM in Indian airspace.

This coupled with the fact that China can be the qualitative driver and provide Pakistan with great 4.5 and 5th gen jets, long range munitions like PL15, PL17, and good radars(of various types)..PAF can absolutely have an edge over IAF...
...bcuz it would take them at least a good decade to address all that has gone on in the past. Capability isn't built in a day...u cant just throw money at it and solve any issues over night...u need money and time.

Israel didn't just use lobbying...
...it used good intelligence, war gaming, tactics to achieve its air superiority as well. It used lack of coordination between Arab militaries(of various nations) to its advantage. Pakistan can do the same...but this advantage may not be there in the long term.

 

[Rational Philosopher]

U r correct...however there's still a small window(about next 10ish years depending on how proactive India is)...
And that is of incompetence(IAF being a hodge podge of eastern and western equipment making integration hard)...
...this can be used to Pak's advantage(as it was done in 2019 and 2025). Pakistan essentially had air superiority a couple of hundred KM in Indian airspace.

This coupled with the fact that China can be the qualitative driver and provide Pakistan with great 4.5 and 5th gen jets, long range munitions like PL15, PL17, and good radars(of various types)..PAF can absolutely have an edge over IAF...
...bcuz it would take them at least a good decade to address all that has gone on in the past. Capability isn't built in a day...u cant just throw money at it and solve any issues over night...u need money and time.

Israel didn't just use lobbying...
...it used good intelligence, war gaming, tactics to achieve its air superiority as well. It used lack of coordination between Arab militaries(of various nations) to its advantage. Pakistan can do the same...but this advantage may not be there in the long term.

Our best bet currently is

1. Sound economic policy – make sure to always maintain a certain ratio of economic size to India's economy to guarantee a credible deterrence. India may be huge but Pakistan isn't small itself, so it should at least try to maintain some proportional element.

2. Extremely efficient use of resources via modularity between tri-services and subsystems between weapons. Focus on strong A2/AD with pockets of credible offensive strike to be able to damage your enemy, hence making their efforts not worth it.

3. Be extremely competent in our tactical warfighting and employment of weapons systems, having intelligent planners and smart officers makes all the difference.

4. This is entirely hopeful, but if India continues being insecure and belligerent against everyone, China & others will be more keen to support us.