Pakistan Air Force | News & Discussions

Hussain said:
PAF will increase the number of J10's it has, its a done deal.
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Quite possibly so, but given all that is happening now, what is the best approach for upgrading the fleet. That is the question. Lets see as you say.
 
Fatman17 said:
Losing 6-7 top line aircraft hurts a lot
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Can one imagine the pain of just inducted limited number of RAFALE that too in limited numbers and they get obliterated in a couple of years right after induction? This pain is too hard to bear. on Topic, i guess PAF now emphasizing on conventional detterrence on the offense side with Taimoor ALCM test recently, the question is will they now b in full production from now on? we need numbers
 
Tariq Habib Afridi said:
Can one imagine the pain of just inducted limited number of RAFALE that too in limited numbers and they get obliterated in a couple of years right after induction? This pain is too hard to bear. on Topic, i guess PAF now emphasizing on conventional detterrence on the offense side with Taimoor ALCM test recently, the question is will they now b in full production from now on? we need numbers
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Can't agree more .... loosing for sure 4 out of 36 and 2 more badly crippled ... most probably written off. Pretty bad. However if I am indian I will invest heavily on rafel 5 and induct them in huge numbers quickly like 200+ in next 8 years. Will try to get local manufacturing including engines. Will try to get full local maintenance including supporting parts production. If i am an indian planner I would go for stopping all other 4/ 4.5 gen project except rafel 5 for iaf. I will stop teja also. Other project india should fully implement is mid life upgrade of su30 mki. With plans to ha e just two fighters 8 years from now upgraded su30mki and rafel. Take these 8 years and invest in joint venture of future fifth gen fighter in partnership with Russia. Eat up the pride. And plan for next 8 to 10 years.
 
studsmart said:
Can't agree more .... loosing for sure 4 out of 36 and 2 more badly crippled ... most probably written off. Pretty bad. However if I am indian I will invest heavily on rafel 5 and induct them in huge numbers quickly like 200+ in next 8 years. Will try to get local manufacturing including engines. Will try to get full local maintenance including supporting parts production. If i am an indian planner I would go for stopping all other 4/ 4.5 gen project except rafel 5 for iaf. I will stop teja also. Other project india should fully implement is mid life upgrade of su30 mki. With plans to ha e just two fighters 8 years from now upgraded su30mki and rafel. Take these 8 years and invest in joint venture of future fifth gen fighter in partnership with Russia. Eat up the pride. And plan for next 8 to 10 years.
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Agree and Thanks you are not IAF
 
Aamir Hussain said:
IMHO the question that we should all be asking is what is the remaining life cycle of J-10 in PLAAF and any future export potential to customer other than PAF? Building a fleet of jets say 45+ plus jets would mean atleast 30 years of operations and upgrades. Will the manufacturer be there to support and upgrade this purchase for the next 30 or so years or even 15 years?

To me J-10C, while an extremely capable aircraft, inducting it in large numbers is a gamble given the slow glide towards end-of-life in PLAAF. The only way PAF can go for larger number of j-10C+ is if we either get an extended MRO facility, and source codes etc. and engine rebuild.

PAF's history has been to induct atleast 80+ aircraft of a type to ensure operational life cycle costs are within limits. MRO facility was an integral part of the deal for such inductions, the only exception was the F-16.
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This topic has already been extensively discussed on this forum.

In modern air combat systems, 5th-generation fighter jets are not particularly well-suited for independent operations. They require the coordinated support of 4.5th-generation fighter jets.
Due to the limitations of stealth design, 5th-generation fighter jets generally employ an internal weapons bay (IWB) design. This design limits their weapons carrying capacity. Of course, they can also use a "beast mode" configuration with a large external weapons load, but this sacrifices their stealth capabilities.

Therefore, in systematic air combat, 5th-generation fighter jets are used to gain air superiority and hunt high-value targets. However, the more numerous and widespread conventional target strike missions need to be carried out by 4.5-generation fighter jets. We could also use 5th-generation fighter jets in "beast mode" to perform this mission, but the cost would be too high (including operating costs, maintenance costs, and many other economic factors).

4.5th-generation fighter jets essentially incorporate many advanced technologies from 5th-generation fighter jets into a 4th-generation fighter platform. They can engage in deep collaborative operations with 5th-generation fighter jets, whereas 4th-generation fighters face certain technical obstacles in this regard.

Due to the highly classified nature of these collaborative technologies, they are typically only implemented within the same system platform. This is what we commonly refer to as a combat group, such as the Russian Su-xx(35+57) family, the American F-xx(16/18+22/35) family, and the Chinese J-xx(10C/11BG/15T/16+20/35) family. Within their respective families, they can achieve deep collaboration, but cross-family collaboration is not possible.

Simply put:

If you want to purchase a country's 5th-generation fighter jets and maximize their combat effectiveness, you need to first acquire the corresponding 4.5th-generation fighter jets from the same system. The specific ratio of these aircraft is determined by each country's economic situation, but the general ratio is between 1:4 and 1:8. That is, one 5th-generation fighter jet is supported by an additional 4-8 4.5th-generation fighter jets. Additionally, you would need the corresponding AEW&C aircraft, air combat command and control systems, and ideally, corresponding electronic warfare (EW) aircraft.

Currently, the only 4.5th-generation fighter jet that China can export is the J-10CE. It has become a prerequisite for purchasing the FC-31/J-35 fighter jet. Therefore, China will not interrupt its maintenance support for the J-10CE.

==========================================================

I have just reviewed some additional information and would like to add the following:

In the early days of the US military, a dedicated communication pod was developed specifically for collaborative operations with 4th-generation fighter jets. This allowed US 4th-generation fighters to operate in conjunction with 5th-generation fighters. The pod was customized for different aircraft types, and its price varied accordingly.

China's J-10C, J-16, and other 4.5th-generation fighter jets are designed with native compatibility for 5th-generation fighter communication technology. They do not require an external communication pod.

If the PAF (Pakistan Air Force) procures the FC-31/J-35 fighter jet and needs to conduct deep collaborative operations with the JF-17 fighter jet, it may be necessary to equip the JF-17 with such a dedicated pod(The cost is low.), or to significantly upgrade the JF-17's communication system(The cost is high.).
 
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Michael said:
This topic has already been extensively discussed on this forum.

In modern air combat systems, 5th-generation fighter jets are not particularly well-suited for independent operations. They require the coordinated support of 4.5th-generation fighter jets.
Due to the limitations of stealth design, 5th-generation fighter jets generally employ an internal weapons bay (IWB) design. This design limits their weapons carrying capacity. Of course, they can also use a "beast mode" configuration with a large external weapons load, but this sacrifices their stealth capabilities.

Therefore, in systematic air combat, 5th-generation fighter jets are used to gain air superiority and hunt high-value targets. However, the more numerous and widespread conventional target strike missions need to be carried out by 4.5-generation fighter jets. We could also use 5th-generation fighter jets in "beast mode" to perform this mission, but the cost would be too high (including operating costs, maintenance costs, and many other economic factors).

4.5th-generation fighter jets essentially incorporate many advanced technologies from 5th-generation fighter jets into a 4th-generation fighter platform. They can engage in deep collaborative operations with 5th-generation fighter jets, whereas 4th-generation fighters face certain technical obstacles in this regard.

Due to the highly classified nature of these collaborative technologies, they are typically only implemented within the same system platform. This is what we commonly refer to as a combat group, such as the Russian Su-xx(35+57) family, the American F-xx(16/18+22/35) family, and the Chinese J-xx(10C/11BG/15T/16+20/35) family. Within their respective families, they can achieve deep collaboration, but cross-family collaboration is not possible.

Simply put:

If you want to purchase a country's 5th-generation fighter jets and maximize their combat effectiveness, you need to first acquire the corresponding 4.5th-generation fighter jets from the same system. The specific ratio of these aircraft is determined by each country's economic situation, but the general ratio is between 1:4 and 1:8. That is, one 5th-generation fighter jet is supported by an additional 4-8 4.5th-generation fighter jets. Additionally, you would need the corresponding AEW&C aircraft, air combat command and control systems, and ideally, corresponding electronic warfare (EW) aircraft.

Currently, the only 4.5th-generation fighter jet that China can export is the J-10CE. It has become a prerequisite for purchasing the FC-31/J-35 fighter jet. Therefore, China will not interrupt its maintenance support for the J-10CE.

==========================================================

I have just reviewed some additional information and would like to add the following:

In the early days of the US military, a dedicated communication pod was developed specifically for collaborative operations with 4th-generation fighter jets. This allowed US 4th-generation fighters to operate in conjunction with 5th-generation fighters. The pod was customized for different aircraft types, and its price varied accordingly.

China's J-10C, J-16, and other 4.5th-generation fighter jets are designed with native compatibility for 5th-generation fighter communication technology. They do not require an external communication pod.

If the PAF (Pakistan Air Force) procures the FC-31/J-35 fighter jet and needs to conduct deep collaborative operations with the JF-17 fighter jet, it may be necessary to equip the JF-17 with such a dedicated pod(The cost is low.), or to significantly upgrade the JF-17's communication system(The cost is high.).
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What is the point you are trying to make here? I might be missing it completely. My point of contention is that banking upon J-10 (a 4.5 gen fighter) to be the future tip of the spear along with a 5th Gen fighter would have consequences. For one, J-10, it seems, is at an end of life as far as PLAAF is concerned. How will the platform be supported across it service life in PAF if we choose it as the tip of spear of our 4.5 gen fleet? What about weapons and systems upgrades, and SLEP's, MRO facility etc.? This would require either buying rights including source codes, etc. from China. That is a huge investment for 80 or so aircraft that PAF would require for truly 4.5 gen aircraft to complement its JFT III and 5th gen Fleet.
 
Aamir Hussain said:
What is the point you are trying to make here? I might be missing it completely. My point of contention is that banking upon J-10 (a 4.5 gen fighter) to be the future tip of the spear along with a 5th Gen fighter would have consequences. For one, J-10, it seems, is at an end of life as far as PLAAF is concerned. How will the platform be supported across it service life in PAF if we choose it as the tip of spear of our 4.5 gen fleet? What about weapons and systems upgrades, and SLEP's, MRO facility etc.? This would require either buying rights including source codes, etc. from China. That is a huge investment for 80 or so aircraft that PAF would require for truly 4.5 gen aircraft to complement its JFT III and 5th gen Fleet.
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In short:
The PLAAF (People's Liberation Army Air Force) has indeed terminated its purchase of the J-10C fighter jet. "For one, J-10, it seems, is at an end of life as far as PLAAF is concerned." This statement is inaccurate. Stopping procurement does not mean the end of its service life.
1. The J-10C will remain in service with the PLAAF for a long time, and its maintenance system will continue.
2. The possibility of resuming procurement in the future cannot be ruled out. The PLA has many precedents for this.

However, the J-10CE and FC-31/J-35 form a standard fighter jet combination. This combination will be the core focus of CATIC's (China National Aero-Technology Import & Export Corporation) fighter jet sales efforts for many years to come.

Therefore, your concern about "How will the platform be supported across its service life in the PAF if we choose it as the tip of the spear of our 4.5 generation fleet?" is unnecessary.

The various subsystems of the J-10CE are supplied by other vendors. These subsystems are also used in other aircraft. The situation is exactly the same for the JF-17 series of fighter jets.“What about weapons and systems upgrades, and SLEP's, MRO facility etc.?”This concern is unnecessary. Many subsystems and weapon systems of the JF-17/J-10C are common to or compatible with many other aircraft currently in service.

As for technology transfer and source code, this issue is not suitable for discussion between you and me. That's a "national matter" between Pakistan and relevant Chinese institutions.
 
Fatman17 said:
Source: Defence Security Asia
https://search.app/sQkmt

Pakistan poised to receive J-35 in 2026-27??

Here we go again!!!
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a lot of credible people are saying the same, but on PDF we have our dedicated thread shut down.

@Musings @Waz Just sad

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Hussain said:
a lot of credible people are saying the same, but on PDF we have our dedicated thread shut down.

@Musings @Waz Just sad

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I dont know about DSA but from J-35E, it seems that its a fake news. J35AE is the right one
 
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