Pakistan Air Force | News & Discussions

[AeronautIR]

How many missiles: Yes, we will certainly improve but same goes for the other side, Isn't it. India can afford 100s of mishits, interceptions etc. How many hits we can afford to our bases? That's the question. Now, you may think I am toeing Indian line or argument but that's how you war game a possible situation. Solution is to take war to enemy instead of waiting.
4. Ceasefire: After getting thoroughly humiliated on 7th, India was desperate to have some kind of win against PAF and our 2 days delay or inaction (8th and 9th) provide them with opportunity to score some hits, declare victory and go off ramp. Well, for inaction, certainly PAF was not responsible but scale of Indian UCAV/LM attack in these two days really tested the limit of our ADS.
5. J-35: Never challenged that PAF has ordered them. I believe they will be part of PAF along with some other hi-tech Chinese systems which we need to complement J-35s and make them better integrated.

Now let me put things in prespective, by PUNCH, I meant offensive capabilities which can take war to enemy like was done in 1965 and during the beginning of 1971 war. Air power is OFFENSIVE in nature as it was developed by US Army as extension of its artillery and initial air power theories were also devised by land forces thinkers as there used to be no official air force in the world as late as 1947. (Fun fact, Pakistan wasn't the only thing came into being during that eventuful year). Air combat, hunting incoming enemy fighters, jamming and spoofing incoming missiles/drones are all DEFENSIVE ops which is secondary role of air power. J-35 will certainly a major boost to our offensive capabilities but how well it will perform will depend how good it's integrated and that's generally true for any platform for any air force. IAF and PAF both have got experienced with respective 4.5 gen fighters (Rafale and J-10CEs), it will take 2-3 years for PAF to do same with J-35. PAF will certainly operationalize its 5G fighter before IAF but questions remains; do we really need a platform only to have offensive capabilities which are required. How about specific stand-off weapon system it will carry to achieve this? Can you shed some light on it.

1. Can't do a wargame without data. How much will India improve? How much will our defenses improve? Please give some datums.

2. We can afford multiple hits on our bases and still keep the operations up. It is the optics and roasting regarding how PAF failed to defend its bases that is more troublesome. There are contingencies practiced on every base annually where you have to show that you can operate without runway or POL or other such hits.

3. Again, good of India that they went for cease fire after hitting the bases but not destroying any aircraft to equalize the score of 7th.

4. "Really tested the limit of our ADS" again, a generic statement. Did we intercept the drones with EW? Are we not filling up the gaps identified with better kinetic and non-kinetic capabilities? Has India started producing 10,000 drones annually as envisaged by some?

5. " Airpower is offensive in nature" doesn't mean the punch you are referring too. Let me recommend you 2 books that will clarify this statement about the employment of Airpower. The War in the Air, 1914-1994 by Alan Stephens and Airpower in 3 Wars by USAF Gen. Momyer.

6. I would love to do an Oxford style academic debate based on many other such books. But this forum has its limitations and I can only conclude by saying that expensive cruise missiles in Indo-Pak scenario can only achieve so much. You need the concentration of force that is not possible with 4 millions dollar Brahmos or small LMs. You will have to use bombs in numbers. The stand-off range of glide bombs is much lesser than missiles. Except great powers, no country can afford to rely solely on hitting the adversary by keeping its aircraft 200 km away throughout the conflict.

 

[AeronautIR]

But seriously...

Based on this Kala LORA...

1. Is it a Stealth LORA?
2. Is it a MOTA (Thick) LORA?
3. How BIG is this LORA?
4. Have the Indians "Tested" this LORA?

These are exremely important questions that need to be raised if we are to intercept this Flying LORA.

View attachment 186452​

Before that, we need to know when is India getting the LORA?

 

[side-winder]

I understand Balochistan is not exactly a secure zone but further back bases and air fields there, does that sound like a good option?

Nope. There is simply no money to build new bases in areas like Balochistan. Building a new base is damn expensive stuff.

The other alternative can be to better prepare the FOBs to readily house and maintain the assets when they are dispersed.

And we need to work on our deception plans.

Also I am suprised Pakistan focused so little on developing offensive strike options or kamikaze drones, unlike India did. Were we really under the impression a conventional conflict wouldn't happen and stuck with it?

May be. Lessons were learnt and hopefully being applied. Next war may be quite different.

 

[Trailer23]

Before that, we need to know when is India getting the LORA?

We're still talking about Missile, right ?

 

[AeronautIR]

We're still talking about Missile, right ?

Of course. What else?

 

[Hopefully Pessimistic]

May be. Lessons were learnt and hopefully being applied. Next war may be quite different.

Chalo, it is better we learnt it before it was entirely too late.

I hope the Rocket Force Command develops into a formiddable force, paired with the air force it would be an extremely capable conventional deterrent.

As Iran has shown kamikaze munitions and missiled allow long-range strike capabilities that our jets may not be able to reliably strike, or for time sensitive targets, heavily defended ones, or even free up air force to focus on more important missions.

The entire Indian economy and infrastructure can be held hostage in a conventional MAD with such a force.

 

[kimjongun]

But seriously...

Based on this Kala LORA...

1. Is it a Stealth LORA?
2. Is it a MOTA (Thick) LORA?
3. How BIG is this LORA?
4. Have the Indians "Tested" this LORA?

These are exremely important questions that need to be raised if we are to intercept this Flying LORA.

View attachment 186452​

Hawai lora from the israelis to the indians , they love those BBC huh

 

[Oscar]

Before that, we need to know when is India getting the LORA?

What rate is Israel producing them?
How long until integration with platforms(very likely only MKi)
How many of the platforms will be modified and how long will that take? (Timeline it took for integration of their own in-house Brahmos onto MKI and modified airframes that ended up using it.)
Training aircrews to operate system, loadmasters to handle weapon etc.

 

[MirageV3ff]

i hope we get SEAD/DEAD missiles for it ( idk if chinese have one that fits in j35 internaly )

that will be fun taking out s400 before they even see us

Low-key seeing how the Iranians have been playing the game. Saturating indian AD with anti-rad seeker kamikaze drones is probably the best bet. Take out their early warning systems and radars with a shahed type drone.

There will definitely be a need for wild weasel type squadrons and stealth fighters in an offensive capacity. But these drones are another angle we should expand upon.

We don't have the economy to exactly procure an NGFA in massive numbers atleast not initially. Next best thing is to overwhelm indian IADs and send in say a modified JF-17 "wild weasel" armed with an LD-8A.

 

[hasssanali8998]

Low-key seeing how the Iranians have been playing the game. Saturating indian AD with anti-rad seeker kamikaze drones is probably the best bet

yes to open up air corridors but not for s400 right at our doorstep , i remember it took some time before they started getting hits ( and we wont have time, short high intensity warfare ) , so sead/dead for s400 and others that dont let our fighters move free and then drones for inland system

 

[Ak01]

We literally have just built taimooor missile which is scalp but better In everyway and you are here screaming we are doomed for eternity...

taimoor is not in service and deployed yet.

its in development.

and once development is complete, we're going to have a grand total of like 5.

im amazed though that you've had an opportunity to look into both missiles to know whats what and whats not.

 

[Ak01]

satellite imagery is not shown, so PAF must be lying

btw 3rd party sat imagery disproved this.

stop being so salty, its been 6 months and you're still whining and crying about us.

Were we your first heartbreak or what

 

[Ak01]

Sure. You can continue telling people how PAF leadership doesn't know the future threat but you have googled the Indian preparations for next war and it will be disastrous for Pakistan.

PAF leadership had from 2019 to learn from Indian strikes inside Pakistan. 6 years to prepare.

2025: IAF once again, able to penetrate into pakistan and strike at will.

So if this was the PAF knowing the future threat, that means either they're incompetent or god knows what.

 

[Ak01]

ut frankly, the way IAF tucked tail and grounded their fleet for most part was one of the biggest achievements of PAF in this conflict - despite being 3x smaller force.

the problem is, you only have one example of this.

It is not enough data to draw a conclusion. Lets say PAF did have air superiority, why was the IAF able to launch air launched effectors the next day? Why did the PAF not fly or was not involved?

They can make the same argument.

We like to see repeatability to draw conclusions, however, unfortunately none of this was repeated, thus, conclusions cant be drawn, which is why i stay skeptical.

 

[Hopefully Pessimistic]

PAF leadership had from 2019 to learn from Indian strikes inside Pakistan. 6 years to prepare.

2025: IAF once again, able to penetrate into pakistan and strike at will.

So if this was the PAF knowing the future threat, that means either they're incompetent or god knows what.

Did they penetrate into Pakistan or fire at stand-off distances within their airspace?

From my limited understanding, they were aware, CAP were active, as soon as missiles struck - which gave the narrative greenlight to retaliate - they immediately fired back.

I think we should ask where tf air defence to intercept missiles was when we knew they were going to strike?

Secondly the overall sense of instituional inertia in Pakistan where they stick with very old strategic analysis and strategies totally ignoring new developments/concepts that drastically influence warfare — case in point was they had a childish belief India wouldn't escalate conventionally with missiles. Several airbases were targeted.

It took being on the edge of war, unprepared, to realise drones & missiles like BrahMos would be a big threat. That would be a disaster in a longer war. One has to ask why?