Pakistan Air Force | News & Discussions

[NationalistPKDude132]

What do you think is the production output of the Taimoor ALCM?

Anyways, I think pinning all this on the PAF solely is also mistaken. Pakistan's not going to win in a tit-for-tat exchange with India. Rather, Pakistan (being the smaller force) would need to escalate all the way to the top to keep India off its feet.

This is why the Army set up ARFC. There's going to come a point where we need the Army to use Indian aggression as a pretext to cross the LoC (and/or other areas). Doing so can, potentially, shift the gravity of the conflict back into India, thereby giving the PAF space to build on the Army's actions with its own operations.

It's high-risk, for sure, but what alternative is there when India comes slamming on our doors? Do we want to entrap ourselves in a tit-for-tat exchange with them?

Pakistan does not need to win a tit for tat exchange, rather it needs drones.. lots of expendable cheap drones to cripple the indian side

Infact I see them moving in this direction when not to long ago they were doing ucav exercises in Punjab. To counter indian cold strike doctrine

 

[rafale]

@Oscar

While we debate the future conflict, and the fact that it is almost given PAF will receive at least one type of Chinese Stealth aircraft in future, whether this year or whenever, that changes the equation a lot.......with regard to the Indian layered AD.

By how much would, say a system like S-400s tracking/detection range reduce from say, 400km if it was tracking something like J-35 (with clean configuration, all AA missiles internally carried)?

Because PAF would want to use VLO aircraft to take out AD near the border area and then thrust forward and take out their MKI and Rafales with PL15/17s?

Like will this scenario work out?

 

[T80UD]

Pakistan does not need to win a tit for tat exchange, rather it needs drones.. lots of expendable cheap drones to cripple the indian side

Infact I see them moving in this direction when not to long ago they were doing ucav exercises in Punjab. To counter indian cold strike doctrine

I doubt they follow cold start anymore considering just how many ATGMs PA has.

 

[kimjongun]

EXACLTY
View attachment 186442

dont ask me why ik the users name...also the original poster didnt claimed he had sources

 

[hasssanali8998]

@Oscar

While we debate the future conflict, and the fact that it is almost given PAF will receive at least one type of Chinese Stealth aircraft in future, whether this year or whenever, that changes the equation a lot.......with regard to the Indian layered AD.

By how much would, say a system like S-400s tracking/detection range reduce from say, 400km if it was tracking something like J-35 (with clean configuration, all AA missiles internally carried)?

Because PAF would want to use VLO aircraft to take out AD near the border area and then thrust forward and take out their MKI and Rafales with PL15/17s?

Like will this scenario work out?

i hope we get SEAD/DEAD missiles for it ( idk if chinese have one that fits in j35 internaly )

that will be fun taking out s400 before they even see us

 

[side-winder]

Believe me it is not Indian preparations I am worried about (though it has its own merits), it is actually something else which bothers me and I have mentioned it above. Sir, few discussions are for us alarmists only. Try to stay clear and keep on with Sab Acha Hai. Thanks.

Bro, relax!
The picture being painted about 10th may is only what you can see. It is not necessarily as bad as you think it is.

The IAF had lost air superiority. They had reduced flying to bare minimum and decided to rely on ground launched BrahMos for most part. The PAF had opened wide air corridors in north and south after SEAD mission on S400s breaking alot of chains which were earlier limiting our freedom to operate - while the WAC bases of IAF remained silent as grave.

I know this stuff to be a fact because i had comrades sitting on Ops Consoles in C2 centers controlling the PAF fighters. And i have seen some of the stuff myself.

Now you can argue all you want about how come this advantage in the air could never be materialized into actual obvious meaningful damage on IAF bases for the satellites to show - I am all up and with you on this - maybe the underpar performance of munitions including Fatahs (except CM400s which did wonderful) or just restarint or whatever else - but frankly, the way IAF tucked tail and grounded their fleet for most part was one of the biggest achievements of PAF in this conflict - despite being 3x smaller force.

Having said that, yes there are alot of learnings where we seriously need work upon.

1. Robust anti-drone / LM solutions is the dire need. Our radar sites got lucky this time. However, Next time the indians may send massive waves in hundreds at a time and it will be one heck of challenge to 100% stop. A compromised ADGE will massively degrade PAF's capabilities.

2. We need to upgrade our offensive strike capabilities. I totally agree, we need munitions like the sort of SCALP, Hammer and BrahMos in large numbers. In addtion, the rocket command needs to play along well with their own toys.

3. Despite having nuetralized about half the BrahMos, we seriously need to improve our AD. India had brahMos in large numbers and hundreds more could seriously damage the PAF bases. Totally agreed.

4. Decoys and dispersal plans require a complete review and need to include some really smart moves. The bholari was a huge blunder.

Now the next conflict may totally be different with totally different strategies being employed. The IAF is already looking into acquiring even longer range weapons like LORA and stuff in addition to developing 800 km version of BrahMos - all while more units of S400 provide air defence cover against PAF - so perhaps shooting their planes won't be as easy as it was this time around - but i remember, people had doubts before 2019 - will our F16s be able to counter Su30s? - then after Rafales induction, how will we counter the Rafales and S400? - and now we have more doubts surrounding our heads. Yes valid points - but people ain't sleeping at AHQ. So relax.

 

[Oscar]

@Oscar

While we debate the future conflict, and the fact that it is almost given PAF will receive at least one type of Chinese Stealth aircraft in future, whether this year or whenever, that changes the equation a lot.......with regard to the Indian layered AD.

By how much would, say a system like S-400s tracking/detection range reduce from say, 400km if it was tracking something like J-35 (with clean configuration, all AA missiles internally carried)?

Because PAF would want to use VLO aircraft to take out AD near the border area and then thrust forward and take out their MKI and Rafales with PL15/17s?

Like will this scenario work out?

Think not purely from LO but overall environment.

Like in a large room , if you put 10 people and its total silence and ask them to listen for a pindrop - chances are a few will hear it.

On the other hand, same room - but filled with people making noise - talking - music in the background - those ten people will struggle to hear the pindrop.

That’s how you utilize your VLO

 

[AeronautIR]

PAF's performance on 7th May 2025 is globally undisputed thing and no one challenged it for that matter. Can you show me where I have down played this PAF's victory in sky? No you can't. You keep brining this up just to change the goal post.

Now coming to real elephant in the room. Did PAF release satellite images of its strikes in Afghanistan? NO. So, how did they surface? Because, there are more than dozen organizations world wide who take keen interests in these conflicts and their cortax analysis. So, when there are actuallly damaged enemy structures and bases, the satellite imagery do come out regardless if conflicting parties release them or not. This is true even in current Iran-Israel/US war. Why you think PAF is pressing on sending own sensors in the sky? There is a cpabilitiy gap which is being plugged in which is good, Alhamdolillah.

You are an IR scholar. Please enlighten us how Air Power came into being and what problem/challenge it was whose solution was sought in air power. I do hope this academic exercise will shed some light on primary aim of having air power in the first place then juxtapose that finding on what I have been saying about our lack of PUNCH agianst a much bigger foe.

Iran has the punch so it is that offence/defence balance debate with limited budget. IAF vice chief AM Tiwari said we used less than 50 weapons to bring Pakistan to table. So was it 49 missiles? What was our interception rate? Will we not try to improve it for future?
About satelite images, I will not go again in same debate. So I will humor you and let's say no Indian targets were destroyed. Good of them that they agreed on cease fire. About offense in next conflict, your window of 2-3 years will see induction of J-35. For me, that is a potent offensive option. Again, if you don't believe PAF has ordered J-35, not gonna go in that discussion either. I guess we will have to wait and see.

 

[NationalistPKDude132]

Bro, relax!
The picture being painted about 10th may is only what you can see. It is not necessarily as bad as you think it is.

The IAF had lost air superiority. They had reduced flying to bare minimum and decided to rely on ground launched BrahMos for most part. The PAF had opened wide air corridors in north and south after SEAD mission on S400s breaking alot of chains which were earlier limiting our freedom to operate - while the WAC bases of IAF remained silent as grave.

I know this stuff to be a fact because i had comrades sitting on Ops Consoles in C2 centers controlling the PAF fighters. And i have seen some of the stuff myself.

Now you can argue all you want about how come this advantage in the air could never be materialized into actual obvious meaningful damage on IAF bases for the satellites to show - I am all up and with you on this - maybe the underpar performance of munitions including Fatahs (except CM400s which did wonderful) or just restarint or whatever else - but frankly, the way IAF tucked tail and grounded their fleet for most part was one of the biggest achievements of PAF in this conflict - despite being 3x smaller force.

Having said that, yes there are alot of learnings where we seriously need work upon.

1. Robust anti-drone / LM solutions is the dire need. Our radar sites got lucky this time. However, Next time the indians may send massive waves in hundreds at a time and it will be one heck of challenge to 100% stop. A compromised ADGE will massively degrade PAF's capabilities.

2. We need to upgrade our offensive strike capabilities. I totally agree, we need munitions like the sort of SCALP, Hammer and BrahMos in large numbers. In addtion, the rocket command needs to play along well with their own toys.

3. Despite having nuetralized about half the BrahMos, we seriously need to improve our AD. India had brahMos in large numbers and hundreds more could seriously damage the PAF bases. Totally agreed.

4. Decoys and dispersal plans require a complete review and need to include some really smart moves. The bholari was a huge blunder.

Now the next conflict may totally be different with totally different strategies being employed. The IAF is already looking into acquiring even longer range weapons like LORA and stuff in addition to developing 800 km version of BrahMos - all while more units of S400 provide air defence cover against PAF - so perhaps shooting their planes won't be as easy as it was this time around - but i remember, people had doubts before 2019 - will our F16s be able to counter Su30s? - then after Rafales induction, how will we counter the Rafales and S400? - and now we have more doubts surrounding our heads. Yes valid points - but people ain't sleeping at AHQ. So relax.

LORA?! Wait that's a missile and they're buying it?!

 

[AeronautIR]

LORA?! Wait that's a missile and they're buying it?!

Long Range Artillery. LORA.

 

[PakShaheen_79]

Bro, relax!
The picture being painted about 10th may is only what you can see. It is not necessarily as bad as you think it is.

The IAF had lost air superiority. They had reduced flying to bare minimum and decided to rely on ground launched BrahMos for most part. The PAF had opened wide air corridors in north and south after SEAD mission on S400s breaking alot of chains which were earlier limiting our freedom to operate - while the WAC bases of IAF remained silent as grave.

I know this stuff to be a fact because i had comrades sitting on Ops Consoles in C2 centers controlling the PAF fighters. And i have seen some of the stuff myself.

Now you can argue all you want about how come this advantage in the air could never be materialized into actual obvious meaningful damage on IAF bases for the satellites to show - I am all up and with you on this - maybe the underpar performance of munitions including Fatahs (except CM400s which did wonderful) or just restarint or whatever else - but frankly, the way IAF tucked tail and grounded their fleet for most part was one of the biggest achievements of PAF in this conflict - despite being 3x smaller force.

Having said that, yes there are alot of learnings where we seriously need work upon.

1. Robust anti-drone / LM solutions is the dire need. Our radar sites got lucky this time. However, Next time the indians may send massive waves in hundreds at a time and it will be one heck of challenge to 100% stop. A compromised ADGE will massively degrade PAF's capabilities.

2. We need to upgrade our offensive strike capabilities. I totally agree, we need munitions like the sort of SCALP, Hammer and BrahMos in large numbers. In addtion, the rocket command needs to play along well with their own toys.

3. Despite having nuetralized about half the BrahMos, we seriously need to improve our AD. India had brahMos in large numbers and hundreds more could seriously damage the PAF bases. Totally agreed.

4. Decoys and dispersal plans require a complete review and need to include some really smart moves. The bholari was a huge blunder.

Now the next conflict may totally be different with totally different strategies being employed. The IAF is already looking into acquiring even longer range weapons like LORA and stuff in addition to developing 800 km version of BrahMos - all while more units of S400 provide air defence cover against PAF - so perhaps shooting their planes won't be as easy as it was this time around - but i remember, people had doubts before 2019 - will our F16s be able to counter Su30s? - then after Rafales induction, how will we counter the Rafales and S400? - and now we have more doubts surrounding our heads. Yes valid points - but people ain't sleeping at AHQ. So relax.

And I am only highlighteining all these areas where we need to work on war footings particularly after how things have been unfolding in the region. Eastern border is not the only worrying axis anymore. Threat matrix has bloomed. We are in active war right now against Afghanistan. Let's hope we will be able to take this op to its logical conclusion. If keeping temperature in Kabul high can usher peace within our borders then so be it. But, till that's achieved, Western border is another axis we need resources for and then there are forces who want to "take care" of Pakistan's nuclear capability once they done with Iran. So in this siutation, not only PAF but all forces need to complete their respective modernization programs ASAP or even war footings. As for PAF, it must complete transition from kill-chain to kill-mesh artchitecture centerned around a very potent offensive capabilities. I don't mind if it is achieved via J-35, Loitering Munitions or UCAVs. We need an airforce where one sensor can share its track data with strong confidence level to any shooter to take care an enemy target in contested air space amid intense cyber/EW distortions.

 

[PakShaheen_79]

Iran has the punch so it is that offence/defence balance debate with limited budget. IAF vice chief AM Tiwari said we used less than 50 weapons to bring Pakistan to table. So was it 49 missiles? What was our interception rate? Will we not try to improve it for future?
About satelite images, I will not go again in same debate. So I will humor you and let's say no Indian targets were destroyed. Good of them that they agreed on cease fire. About offense in next conflict, your window of 2-3 years will see induction of J-35. For me, that is a potent offensive option. Again, if you don't believe PAF has ordered J-35, not gonna go in that discussion either. I guess we will have to wait and see.

1. IRAN: I think it's not fair to compare PAF with IRAF or their missile capabilities with ours. Unlike PAF, Iran failed to develop its air force BUT it made for that by investing billions in underground productio and storage of CONVENTIONAL ballistic missiles and drones. We jsut raised our rocket force for the same purpose. Our ballistic missile program has been traditionally tied to our nuclear program. So different situations. You yourself mentioned J-35 as potent offensive option, that's what is required along with more J-10Cs, UCAVs and LM swarms.
2. How many missiles: Yes, we will certainly improve but same goes for the other side, Isn't it. India can afford 100s of mishits, interceptions etc. How many hits we can afford to our bases? That's the question. Now, you may think I am toeing Indian line or argument but that's how you war game a possible situation. Solution is to take war to enemy instead of waiting.
3. Satellite Images: You only got them when you actually have hit something. As explained earlier, third parties always there. IAF's failed attack on Balakot in 2019 was exposed through satellite images not by PAF but by Planet Lab. This time, Indian hits were confirmed not by IAF but by MAXAR. IAF used them much later.
4. Ceasefire: After getting thoroughly humiliated on 7th, India was desperate to have some kind of win against PAF and our 2 days delay or inaction (8th and 9th) provide them with opportunity to score some hits, declare victory and go off ramp. Well, for inaction, certainly PAF was not responsible but scale of Indian UCAV/LM attack in these two days really tested the limit of our ADS.
5. J-35: Never challenged that PAF has ordered them. I believe they will be part of PAF along with some other hi-tech Chinese systems which we need to complement J-35s and make them better integrated.

Now let me put things in prespective, by PUNCH, I meant offensive capabilities which can take war to enemy like was done in 1965 and during the beginning of 1971 war. Air power is OFFENSIVE in nature as it was developed by US Army as extension of its artillery and initial air power theories were also devised by land forces thinkers as there used to be no official air force in the world as late as 1947. (Fun fact, Pakistan wasn't the only thing came into being during that eventuful year). Air combat, hunting incoming enemy fighters, jamming and spoofing incoming missiles/drones are all DEFENSIVE ops which is secondary role of air power. J-35 will certainly a major boost to our offensive capabilities but how well it will perform will depend how good it's integrated and that's generally true for any platform for any air force. IAF and PAF both have got experienced with respective 4.5 gen fighters (Rafale and J-10CEs), it will take 2-3 years for PAF to do same with J-35. PAF will certainly operationalize its 5G fighter before IAF but questions remains; do we really need a platform only to have offensive capabilities which are required. How about specific stand-off weapon system it will carry to achieve this? Can you shed some light on it.

 

[RAMPAGE]

@Oscar

While we debate the future conflict, and the fact that it is almost given PAF will receive at least one type of Chinese Stealth aircraft in future, whether this year or whenever, that changes the equation a lot.......with regard to the Indian layered AD.

By how much would, say a system like S-400s tracking/detection range reduce from say, 400km if it was tracking something like J-35 (with clean configuration, all AA missiles internally carried)?

Because PAF would want to use VLO aircraft to take out AD near the border area and then thrust forward and take out their MKI and Rafales with PL15/17s?

Like will this scenario work out?

Drones will have limited use now that there are cheap drone interceptors.

 

[Trailer23]

Long Range Artillery. LORA.

But seriously...

Based on this Kala LORA...

1. Is it a Stealth LORA?
2. Is it a MOTA (Thick) LORA?
3. How BIG is this LORA?
4. Have the Indians "Tested" this LORA?

These are exremely important questions that need to be raised if we are to intercept this Flying LORA.

​

 

[Hopefully Pessimistic]

Bro, relax!
The picture being painted about 10th may is only what you can see. It is not necessarily as bad as you think it is.

The IAF had lost air superiority. They had reduced flying to bare minimum and decided to rely on ground launched BrahMos for most part. The PAF had opened wide air corridors in north and south after SEAD mission on S400s breaking alot of chains which were earlier limiting our freedom to operate - while the WAC bases of IAF remained silent as grave.

I know this stuff to be a fact because i had comrades sitting on Ops Consoles in C2 centers controlling the PAF fighters. And i have seen some of the stuff myself.

Now you can argue all you want about how come this advantage in the air could never be materialized into actual obvious meaningful damage on IAF bases for the satellites to show - I am all up and with you on this - maybe the underpar performance of munitions including Fatahs (except CM400s which did wonderful) or just restarint or whatever else - but frankly, the way IAF tucked tail and grounded their fleet for most part was one of the biggest achievements of PAF in this conflict - despite being 3x smaller force.

Having said that, yes there are alot of learnings where we seriously need work upon.

1. Robust anti-drone / LM solutions is the dire need. Our radar sites got lucky this time. However, Next time the indians may send massive waves in hundreds at a time and it will be one heck of challenge to 100% stop. A compromised ADGE will massively degrade PAF's capabilities.

2. We need to upgrade our offensive strike capabilities. I totally agree, we need munitions like the sort of SCALP, Hammer and BrahMos in large numbers. In addtion, the rocket command needs to play along well with their own toys.

3. Despite having nuetralized about half the BrahMos, we seriously need to improve our AD. India had brahMos in large numbers and hundreds more could seriously damage the PAF bases. Totally agreed.

4. Decoys and dispersal plans require a complete review and need to include some really smart moves. The bholari was a huge blunder.

Now the next conflict may totally be different with totally different strategies being employed. The IAF is already looking into acquiring even longer range weapons like LORA and stuff in addition to developing 800 km version of BrahMos - all while more units of S400 provide air defence cover against PAF - so perhaps shooting their planes won't be as easy as it was this time around - but i remember, people had doubts before 2019 - will our F16s be able to counter Su30s? - then after Rafales induction, how will we counter the Rafales and S400? - and now we have more doubts surrounding our heads. Yes valid points - but people ain't sleeping at AHQ. So relax.

Brother, on your point regarding #4, what actually viable options do you believe would work well to ensure the best possible way of uninterrupted air ops?

I understand Balochistan is not exactly a secure zone but further back bases and air fields there, does that sound like a good option?

Also I am suprised Pakistan focused so little on developing offensive strike options or kamikaze drones, unlike India did. Were we really under the impression a conventional conflict wouldn't happen and stuck with it?

It feels like Pakistani strategists stuck to very traditional idea of warfare, avoiding newer ground strike options, and focusing on aerial ops (which they performed amazingly) while the Indians realised missiles and loitering/kamimaze drones would be very beneficial and went in hard from BrahMos to SCALP etc.