Pakistan Air Force | News & Discussions

[RAMPAGE]

and once development is complete, we're going to have a grand total of like 5.

I realise funds and sanctions are a problem, but why are you assuming such a low production capacity? Considering these are intended more for conventional warefare, why do you assume we can't ramp up production?

 

[Ak01]

I realise funds and sanctions are a problem, but why are you assuming such a low production capacity? Considering these are intended more for conventional warefare, why do you assume we can't ramp up production?

the issue is funds and sanctions.

we cant really ramp up production because of the funds and sanctions angle.

Plus, the PAF is relatively a small organisation, how many taimooray's can it buy?

scale is so important here, without it, it becomes extremely difficult for the paf to be able to afford this kit. But also, the other angle, without a fair supply of orders, AWC cant really setup a proper production line beyond some guys in a room, because if the orders dont scale with it, the costs per unit become so disproportionate that the end user would no longer be interested in purchasing. Its why GIDS had such a hard push for sales in the gulf of these 'strategic' weapons, because they need SOMEONE to put the order in so AWC can actually scale production, otherwise the costs remain insane!

JASSM development budget in todays money was $1.6bn. Lets assume Taimoor/Ra'ad development budget was 1/10th, thats 160 million. How many units can the PAF realistically order? Maybe 100, if pushed? what would you expect unit costs to be?

Oh and before our resident genius comes in screeching, id like to point everyone to the example of the PAF only procuring 60 CM400AKG's, despite them being stretched to multiple roles, from SEAD down to Anti Ship strikes.

 

[PakShaheen_79]

Of course. What else?

ہا ہاہا ۔۔۔ حضرات یہ ایک پبلک فورم ہے لہذا ۔۔۔ یا شیخ باز آ

 

[mythbuster]

PAF leadership had from 2019 to learn from Indian strikes inside Pakistan. 6 years to prepare.

2025: IAF once again, able to penetrate into pakistan and strike at will.

So if this was the PAF knowing the future threat, that means either they're incompetent or god knows what.

You are not making any sense mate...are you filling up some empty space ?

 

[PakShaheen_79]

PAF leadership had from 2019 to learn from Indian strikes inside Pakistan. 6 years to prepare.

2025: IAF once again, able to penetrate into pakistan and strike at will.

So if this was the PAF knowing the future threat, that means either they're incompetent or god knows what.

Well, to be honest if we look at Iran-Israel situation in terms of number of hits Israel has taken and juxtapose that on Indo-Pakistan situation (next door neighbors, 2600 KM border, no comparison with Israeli ADS) ... We can't ignore the fact that some hits will take place no matter what and this goes both ways. Here, IAF's numerical advantage and geographic depth comes to Indian help while Pakistan is victim of geography other than anything. That's why I have said multiple times, Pakistan's only option is to take the conflict inside Indian border. Defensive mindset with this kind of disproportionate geographical disadvantage will do more harm to us. Terrorism in Pakistan has dropped considerably since we launched offensive inside Afghanistan instead of playing defensive and giving advantage of surprise of enemy. Same is true in case of India. Only thing is we will have to prepare 3X more to make it happen. Tough ask, very tough ask but not impossible if we set our priorities right in running in this state.

 

[PakShaheen_79]

Hawai lora from the israelis to the indians , they love those BBC huh

Now I got Modi's "Motherland" and Bibi's "Faterland" situation.

 

[Ak01]

Well, to be honest if we look at Iran-Israel situation in terms of number of hits Israel has taken and juxtapose that on Indo-Pakistan situation (next door neighbors, 2600 KM border, no comparison with Israeli ADS) ... We can't ignore the fact that some hits will take place no matter what and this goes both ways. Here, IAF's numerical advantage and geographic depth comes to Indian help while Pakistan is victim of geography other than anything. That's why I have said multiple times, Pakistan's only option is to take the conflict inside Indian border. Defensive mindset with this kind of disproportionate geographical disadvantage will do more harm to us. Terrorism in Pakistan has dropped considerably since we launched offensive inside Afghanistan instead of playing defensive and giving advantage of surprise of enemy. Same is true in case of India. Only thing is we will have to prepare 3X more to make it happen. Tough ask, very tough ask but not impossible if we set our priorities right in running in this state.

Indeed, im not delusional (AM SOMETIMES), hits are expected, airbases going inop temporarily is expected and nothing abnormal. In theory the PAF should have kit to make them temporarily available via stuff like special mats etc to keep ops running.

What i do think is silly however is burying our heads in the sand with misplaced priorities. Sidhu sitting there playing psuedo dictator...

I totally agree, if we act defensively, we should expect decapitation. All it takes is a large initial strike, and a couple getting through to cripple entire squadrons. The PAF needs to be able to get into the air to be effective.

 

[Hopefully Pessimistic]

This might sound like a stupid question so excuse me if it is, but is there a dedicated department that analyses ongoing global conflicts, new technology/weapons developments and fighting concepts, to feed to our military strategists and heads so they are more informed and do not remain stagnant and stuck in what they last learnt 10 years or so ago? @Panzerkiel

Maybe I'm worrying for nothing but instituional inertia and being unable to evolve/adapt strategy is a common theme in general in PK.

Echo chambers relying on assumptions or "dont worry we already have our 10 year old plan for this" without self re-assessment is not a good sign.

 

[side-winder]

the problem is, you only have one example of this.

It is not enough data to draw a conclusion. Lets say PAF did have air superiority, why was the IAF able to launch air launched effectors the next day? Why did the PAF not fly or was not involved?

They can make the same argument.

We like to see repeatability to draw conclusions, however, unfortunately none of this was repeated, thus, conclusions cant be drawn, which is why i stay skeptical.

That's the point, Indians launched about 35-40 missiles on 10th and most of them were coming from ground based launchers and of them too, most from Surat Garh, Bhuj and a firing range near jaisalmer.

The PAF remained active with intermittent sorties from early morning hours on 10th may all the way till around noon. Here are some of the locations which were confirmed attacked by PAF which i can recall from my own memory :-

1. Adampur
2. Bhuj
3. Pathankot
4. Bhatinda
5. Halwara
6. Awantipur
7. Srinagar
8. Barnala

Now although these were only one or two odd munitions launched on each of these but PAF did launch stuff on these bases. The Indians did accept impacts on Adampur, Udhampur, Bhuj, Sri Nagar, Pathankot and Awantipur.

The airspace was wide open for PAF to operate after S400 went offline for whatever reasons and everytime our strike formation went up - not a single fukin scramble from IAF to even try and intercept our fighters.

But i won't force you to believe that - you have all the right to be skeptical - However, If you have any link with any guy having knowledge of PAF operations. You can verify my points on a personal note independently.

 

[Hopefully Pessimistic]

That's the point, Indians launched about 35-40 missiles on 10th and most of them were coming from ground based launchers and of them too, most from Surat Garh, Bhuj and a firing range near jaisalmer.

The PAF remained active with intermittent sorties from early morning hours on 10th may all the way till around noon. Here are some of the locations which were confirmed attacked by PAF which i can recall from my own memory :-

1. Adampur
2. Bhuj
3. Pathankot
4. Bhatinda
5. Halwara
6. Awantipur
7. Srinagar
8. Barnala

Now although these were only one or two odd munitions launched on each of these but PAF did launch stuff on these bases. The Indians did accept impacts on Adampur, Udhampur, Bhuj, Sri Nagar, Pathankot and Awantipur.

The airspace was wide open for PAF to operate after S400 went offline for whatever reasons and everytime our strike formation went up - not a single fukin scramble from IAF to even try and intercept our fighters.

But i won't force you to believe that - you have all the right to be skeptical - However, If you have any link with any guy having knowledge of PAF operations. You can verify my points on a personal note independently.

Would you say it was a strategic choice (for whatever reason it may be) that Pakistan only launched negligible munitions at these bases, or was it a genuine lack of offensive strike capacity?

Also I think your inputs are quite balanced and truthful, no reason to suspect Pakistan underperformed in the air at all.

It was air defense that was a little disappointing - can't expect invincibility here either - and people expecting a greater counter strike following the 10th.

But I think people's worry of the air force's ground infra, and ability to sustain ops uninterrupted to an acceptable degree is valid also.

 

[RAMPAGE]

the issue is funds and sanctions.

we cant really ramp up production because of the funds and sanctions angle.

Plus, the PAF is relatively a small organisation, how many taimooray's can it buy?

scale is so important here, without it, it becomes extremely difficult for the paf to be able to afford this kit. But also, the other angle, without a fair supply of orders, AWC cant really setup a proper production line beyond some guys in a room, because if the orders dont scale with it, the costs per unit become so disproportionate that the end user would no longer be interested in purchasing. Its why GIDS had such a hard push for sales in the gulf of these 'strategic' weapons, because they need SOMEONE to put the order in so AWC can actually scale production, otherwise the costs remain insane!

JASSM development budget in todays money was $1.6bn. Lets assume Taimoor/Ra'ad development budget was 1/10th, thats 160 million. How many units can the PAF realistically order? Maybe 100, if pushed? what would you expect unit costs to be?

Oh and before our resident genius comes in screeching, id like to point everyone to the example of the PAF only procuring 60 CM400AKG's, despite them being stretched to multiple roles, from SEAD down to Anti Ship strikes.

Let's assume CAPEX at $320 million and a unit cost of $0.8 million. That's $4 million a pop for a 100 units. $400 million for a hundred. Is GIDS offering ToT?

 

[mythbuster]

Well, to be honest if we look at Iran-Israel situation in terms of number of hits Israel has taken and juxtapose that on Indo-Pakistan situation (next door neighbors, 2600 KM border, no comparison with Israeli ADS) ... We can't ignore the fact that some hits will take place no matter what and this goes both ways. Here, IAF's numerical advantage and geographic depth comes to Indian help while Pakistan is victim of geography other than anything. That's why I have said multiple times, Pakistan's only option is to take the conflict inside Indian border. Defensive mindset with this kind of disproportionate geographical disadvantage will do more harm to us. Terrorism in Pakistan has dropped considerably since we launched offensive inside Afghanistan instead of playing defensive and giving advantage of surprise of enemy. Same is true in case of India. Only thing is we will have to prepare 3X more to make it happen. Tough ask, very tough ask but not impossible if we set our priorities right in running in this state.

Exactly , offensive doctrine is the way forward....why do you believe that Pakistan is still stuck in offensive defensive doctrine of yesteryears?

 

[Hopefully Pessimistic]

Exactly , offensive doctrine is the way forward....why do you believe that Pakistan is still stuck in offensive defensive doctrine of yesteryears?

Pakistan's geography makes a defensive-heavy doctrine dangerous because it's narrow and hard to defend, so offensive capacity is true deterrence.

But some question it because

a.) Risk of uncontrolled escalation
b.) Pakistani economy inability to pump out required units of strike weapons

 

[side-winder]

Would you say it was a strategic choice (for whatever reason it may be) that Pakistan only launched negligible munitions at these bases, or was it a genuine lack of offensive strike capacity?

We ofcourse lack weapons like scalp, hammer and brahmos in large numbers. So both may be the reasons.

Also I think your inputs are quite balanced and truthful, no reason to suspect Pakistan underperformed in the air at all.

Seeing is believing Sir!

I believe because i have seen. You can suspect, i don't have any issues.

But I think people's worry of the air force's ground infra, and ability to sustain ops uninterrupted to an acceptable degree is valid also.

Yes alot of room for improvement however, there is a whole team of IG's branch which visits each base every year and tasks the base with every possible contingency and evaluates their performance as a team. It's a routine affair.

 

[mythbuster]

We ofcourse lack weapons like scalp, hammer and brahmos in large numbers. So both may be the reasons.


Seeing is believing Sir!

I believe because i have seen. You can suspect, i don't have any issues.



Yes alot of room for improvement however, there is a whole team of IG's branch which visits each base every year and tasks the base with every possible contingency and evaluates their performance as a team. It's a routine affair.

A cursory glance at our procurements of the last few years ( within our budget constraints) will tell you that it's geared towards an offensive posture....we are paying more attention towards AD now .