Pakistan Air Force | News & Discussions

[ThoroughPro]

Not HQ-19.

regardless whether it is xx9 or xx19 or xx99, everyone knows that there will be new air defence batteries (both soft and hard kill) inducted in enough numbers to protect all high value assets

 

[ThoroughPro]

Now that China seems to have moved on to more advanced AAMs (such as PL-17 and beyond), is it possible for Pakistan to get ToT for PL-15 from the iron brothers and then come up with its new variants (such as anti-radiation, anti ship, and air to ground missiles) on its own?

why reinvent the wheel and waste money on setting up production of something that is easily available and advancing at a very high speed. Our focus should be on acquiring the next variant PL17 with even longer range

 

[Falgrine]

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@side-winder do we rehearse for such scenarios and can they do this.

How many of those ALBMs, SOWs will be shot by PAF ground defenses.
There will definitely be a saturation attack against our bases, as this Indian source has suggested.

In my opinion, the only credible solution is to take the fight to the enemy first. Only that will create the deterrence.

Plans should be made and communicated to the Hindus in no ambiguous terms.

Imagine, if REKs, H2/H4 and other SOW muntions were launched towards the bases where InAF strikers had been marshalling before the 7th May. We would not have those 10s of civies killed and a new normal formed against us.

The world has never thought any good for us so let them think what they like.

 

[ThoroughPro]

Man, sure am scared IAF now has the signatures for the seekers made in 2015....

their false sense of security works well for us.

 

[Liquidator]

How many of those ALBMs, SOWs will be shot by PAF ground defenses.
There will definitely be a saturation attack against our bases, as this Indian source has suggested.

In my opinion, the only credible solution is to take the fight to the enemy first. Only that will create the deterrence.

Plans should be made and communicated to the Hindus in no ambiguous terms.

Imagine, if REKs, H2/H4 and other SOW muntions were launched towards the bases where InAF strikers had been marshalling before the 7th May. We would not have those 10s of civies killed and a new normal formed against us.

The world has never thought any good for us so let them think what they like.

Muslim nations have a peculiar mindset. That is, sit around waiting to get bitch slapped, and then respond.

Iran, Pakistan.....both did the same. Both of them knew their enemies were readying and attack. Usually, the guy who attacks first is in an advantageous position.

India will not be able to hide it's intent, Pakistan should take the advantage next time. Just take them out....

 

[Rational Philosopher]

Muslim nations have a peculiar mindset. That is, sit around waiting to get bitch slapped, and then respond.

Iran, Pakistan.....both did the same. Both of them knew their enemies were readying and attack. Usually, the guy who attacks first is in an advantageous position.

India will not be able to hide it's intent, Pakistan should take the advantage next time. Just take them out....

I wouldn't call it peculiar. Both nations are up against significantly larger, more wealthy, and well equipped nations so didn't want to be the ones starting a conflict as they would be on the back foot.

If they were the larger adversary im sure they'd be more pre-emptive.

 

[Rational Philosopher]

Honestly I'm still very bearish on the Pakistani military and I fear recent wins by the Air Force (credit where credit is due) is going to turn us arrogant and egotistical, which will give a false sense of security and significantly underestimating our opponents.

For one, we are way too reliant on the Air Force (this is understandable in the modern era but), this leads to us ignoring the other services.

Secondly I worry about the boomer mindset & intellectual capacity amongst our officer ranks in all services. They have little foresight and seem like highly nepotistic picks. Extremely outdated thinking and refusal to adapt except for certain areas which are critical, that too learned from allies like China.

 

[gamaji]

Honestly I'm still very bearish on the Pakistani military and I fear recent wins by the Air Force (credit where credit is due) is going to turn us arrogant and egotistical, which will give a false sense of security and significantly underestimating our opponents.

For one, we are way too reliant on the Air Force (this is understandable in the modern era but), this leads to us ignoring the other services.

Secondly I worry about the boomer mindset & intellectual capacity amongst our officer ranks in all services. They have little foresight and seem like highly nepotistic picks. Extremely outdated thinking and refusal to adapt except for certain areas which are critical, that too learned from allies like China.

I think your concern is misplaced. People are working hard for the next round.

 

[Michael]

Now that China seems to have moved on to more advanced AAMs (such as PL-17 and beyond), is it possible for Pakistan to get ToT for PL-15 from the iron brothers and then come up with its new variants (such as anti-radiation, anti ship, and air to ground missiles) on its own?

"ToT of weapons technology" is the unrequited love of many Pakistani military fans.

For general weapon systems, if they are mainly mechanical and not too complicated, Pakistan's introduction of them in the form of ToT does have some practical significance, but not much.

For a compact and high-precision weapon like the PL-15E, Pakistan has no practical significance in "introducing ToT production". At least that's the case from now until many years into the future.
1. Pakistan lacks the production capacity for any PL-15E components. These are products of a highly developed precision machining and electronic information technology industry chain.
2. Pakistan's labor cost advantage is completely unrealistic if only assembly is involved. After all, no matter how low labor costs are, they cannot compare to the labor costs of a fully automated, unmanned assembly line.

I'm not making a judgment on whether Pakistan will eventually acquire a PL-15 assembly line. After all, if Saudi Arabia can provide substantial funding, anything is possible.
But I still maintain that even if Pakistan acquires it, it will be of little practical significance.

Use those insights to then develop a homegrown system. The key here is IF the ToT leads to genuine know-how transfer and not just assembling.

In the modern industrial landscape, achieving perfection in anything, and achieving 100% autonomy in any product, is an extremely difficult task. Behind each of these lies a vast industrial system.
Each seemingly insignificant aspect represents the culmination of human civilization. If you want to fully master it, you must start from the very basics. There are no shortcuts!

 

[PakShaheen_79]

The one question on my mind since May 6–10, 2025, is this: We were on high alert and had observed the deployment of large Indian jets to the northern bases, and we remained alert on the day of the IAF mission. So, when they launched air-launched missiles, why didn't we intercept them and instead allow them to hit our nine sites? I am aware that the response time for interception was very short, but does that mean that whenever we are attacked by air-launched missiles such as SCALP-EG, BrahMos, or HAMMER, we will be unable to intercept them due to the very limited time available? Or did we deliberately let them hit so that we could later justify our own actions?

on that 6/7th may we intercepted none? is it due to our own assets were also airborne ready to target the IAF assets that released payloads? to avoid our own attrition? or is there any other reason for zero interception at that night?

@Oscar @arslank01 @JamD @Bilal @Quwa @farooqbhai @Panzerkiel @side-winder

1. Change of contract in the mid air as been told by AVM Arungzeb since day 1 tells you a lot about the level of intel we had which actually was not v good. It was actually leadership and preperation of PAF pilots which saved the day for us. Changing contract like this was done for the first time in PAF's history. I haven't read anything like this in past wars.
2. Only 2 out of 9 sites were attacked by IAF. This has been now confirmed by IAF itself.
3. Interception: With growing sophistication of air lanuched weapons, 100% interception is only a dream for large countries like Pakistan or India. Even Tiny Israel with the best interception arrangement can't stop 100% of missiles. But I believe due to our limited/faulty intel PAF/PA were not aware of IAF's actual gameplan till those A2G weapons were released.
4. Pakistan's ability to interception was further limited by the fact that Pakistan only recently start developing serious Air Defense capabilities those can challenge aerial projects like SCLAP-EG or Brahmos. Massive gaps in our ADS allowed IAF to carry out strikes in Central and Southern sectors. All northern sites were targeted by IA.
5. Apart from ADS missile battries Pakistan needs to shoreup defenses against Loitoring Munitions, smaller UCAVs. Distance of targets from LoC in AJK was such that it is practically impossible to shoot down every projectile.
6. In the final build up it was 42 vs. 76 aircraft between PAF and IAF. So a lots of assets were on ground. PAF was preparing to defend its air space but IAF opened the conflict with Stand-off weapons exposing our above mentioned limitations.
7. Pakistan also needs to work on air launched stand-off weapons. CM-400s are good but their range needs to be extended. Even a 50-100 KG warhead would be enough to takeout a radar some 500 KM away. What we actually need is an conventional air launched cruise missile.

 

[Gripen9]

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[gamaji]

"ToT of weapons technology" is the unrequited love of many Pakistani military fans.

For general weapon systems, if they are mainly mechanical and not too complicated, Pakistan's introduction of them in the form of ToT does have some practical significance, but not much.

For a compact and high-precision weapon like the PL-15E, Pakistan has no practical significance in "introducing ToT production". At least that's the case from now until many years into the future.
1. Pakistan lacks the production capacity for any PL-15E components. These are products of a highly developed precision machining and electronic information technology industry chain.
2. Pakistan's labor cost advantage is completely unrealistic if only assembly is involved. After all, no matter how low labor costs are, they cannot compare to the labor costs of a fully automated, unmanned assembly line.

I'm not making a judgment on whether Pakistan will eventually acquire a PL-15 assembly line. After all, if Saudi Arabia can provide substantial funding, anything is possible.
But I still maintain that even if Pakistan acquires it, it will be of little practical significance.

In the modern industrial landscape, achieving perfection in anything, and achieving 100% autonomy in any product, is an extremely difficult task. Behind each of these lies a vast industrial system.
Each seemingly insignificant aspect represents the culmination of human civilization. If you want to fully master it, you must start from the very basics. There are no shortcuts!

What you have said generally makes sense. It is known that PL-15 production line is highly automated and also the embedded code in the missile might be fruit of an intensive R&D effort.

However, I think the gap between PL-15E tech and Pakistan's current industrial based (and its capabilities to absorb the PL-15 tech) is not bigger than the gap we had before commencing the domestic production of JF-17s after getting the know how and the codes for necessary sub-systems from China.

If Pakistan was able to set up the Thunder's production line then by importing the latest machining tools from Europe and getting the needed man power trained in China (almost simultaneously), what makes you believe that a repeat of that is unachievable now?

 

[Michael]

What you have said generally makes sense. It is known that PL-15 production line is highly automated and also the embedded code in the missile might be fruit of an intensive R&D effort.

However, I think the gap between PL-15E tech and Pakistan's current industrial based (and its capabilities to absorb the PL-15 tech) is not bigger than the gap we had before commencing the domestic production of JF-17s after getting the know how and the codes for necessary sub-systems from China.

If Pakistan was able to set up the Thunder's production line then by importing the latest machining tools from Europe and getting the needed man power trained in China (almost simultaneously), what makes you believe that a repeat of that is unachievable now?

1. As for the components of the PL-15 missile, the possibility of Pakistan independently producing them at this point is almost zero. We won't discuss the technical details of industrial production here, as it involves too many complex industrial issues.

2. The PL-15's fully automated, unmanned assembly line. The initial investment cost is very high, but this is not the biggest issue. With Saudi Arabia's help, Pakistan will have little trouble raising the funds. The key issue lies in cost-effectiveness.

This production line has enormous production capacity. China can guarantee a sufficient supply of components, and Pakistani factories can also ensure sufficient assembly capacity. However, does the PAF have enough money to purchase such a large amount of production capacity? ------ According to CCTV reports, China's PL-15 production line operates 24/7, fully automated and unmanned. Its designed maximum capacity is 100 missiles per day (China's actual production is not at full capacity).

Even if we reduce this capacity to about one-third, or approximately 30 missiles per day, the 240 PL-15E missiles purchased by the PAF can be produced in just eight days.

How many PL-15E missiles do you think the PAF needs or can afford to purchase?

Whether you have money or not, you will never buy a commercial kitchen system (which can provide food for 100-1000 people) to solve the problem of feeding a family (3-10 people).

 

[Sipahsalar]

How many of those ALBMs, SOWs will be shot by PAF ground defenses.

This is what India tried on May 7th. They lost 5 planes in just 24 strikes. For 90 strikes, they’ll probably lose 20 - 24 planes. Not to mention Pakistan is now preparing a massive preemptive strikes posture. Any movement on that scale will be picked up and destroyed before being deployed.

 

[Sipahsalar]

ToT of weapons technology" is the unrequited love of many Pakistani military fans.

Remember the ToT of Augusta submarines? We made so many submarines from that.