Pakistan has a Problem | Quwa Group - My Counter Thoughts

[Ak01]

Totally agreed BuM was for local consumption and not a real military response. But the downing of 6 Indian fighter jets and the grounding of the Indian Air Force for two days (per their own admission) wasn’t a trivial matter. The Indians never used their Air Force after the initial battle and even by their own admission, fired their munitions on the 10th from extreme ranges.

Pakistan’s response was hampered by army dominated GHQ which turned a clear win on the 7th into an unnecessary mess.

But really and truly, this didnt change the conclusion of the situation at all.

It may have lead to a shift in doctrine, but the end result would have been the same.

The reality is downing of aircraft is relatively trivial, its expected, thats why these things exist. We have known the PAF has always been a tactically superior force, but celebrating stuff like aircraft kills really drags down the professional image of the force, thank god we did not do what we did for swift retort again.

Us harping on about Indian aircraft and potentially Indian Airforce being skittish would have been great- but really, what value would it bring? Being critical is important because it leads to improvement, patting ourselves on the back, ignoring the fire around us will let us get burnt however.

 

[Falcon26]

Babur/Ra'ad are nuclear capable cruise missiles in Pakistan's arsenal.

Pakistan, like rest of the world had assumed Brahmos was also a dual use missile (nuclear capable) as that's what Indians had been claiming for decades and, this weapon was not expected to be used so early on in the conflict, hence, the US and others stepping in.

After the war, Indian officials have been saying that Brahmos is only a conventional cruise missile and not a nuclear capable missile.

All this means is that Pakistan will now update it's war doctrine, take the kiddie gloves off and bring forward the cruise missiles in anticipation of the next war. Basically India's Hindu Extremist Government has turned the region into a nuclear flashpoint.

I have been a loud proponent of Pakistan acquiring the SOM cruise missiles from Turkey and have some have said that’s pointless since Pakistan has Ra’ad. Not considering the fact Ra’ad is at least a generation behind SOM, the futility of this argument was in full display in May.

 

[Bratva]

Why can't we use the BrahMos strength against itself? The faster a missile, the less manoeuvrable it is in a given time. It's plain physics.

BrahMos is primarily a line of sight missile. Given that the likely ingress is from the east (India) or south (Indian Navy), we should be using mountains or artificial fortifications as shields in those directions.

There is the off chance that India could use their base in Tajikistan or get creative with Afghanistan, but that can be taken into account.

Our ADS will not be battling brahmos only. It will be loitering munitions, Drones, probing aerial devices, Harops, Air to Ground Munitions. In the mix will come the Brahmos. Pakistan has limited number of HQ series batteries and LY-80 and no one is capable to handle saturation attacks.

Did you forget DGISPR press conferences? How he said, Our ADS are in passive mode, as India can easily identify where the batteries are and can attack them in saturation?

What is the solution then? Strategic offensive action. As soon as 1 brahmos/Scalp comes our way, 10 Supersonic missile from our side hit their side. Strategic paralysis and restrain is akin to snatching defeat from the jaws of 7th may victory.

 

[Ak01]

Our ADS will not be battling brahmos only. It will loitering munitions, Drones, probing aerial devices, Harops, Air to Ground Munitions. In the mix will come the Brahmos. Pakistan has limited number of HQ series batteries and LY-80 and no one is capable to handle saturation attacks.

Did you forget DGISPR press conferences? How he said, Our ADS are in passive mode, as India can easily identify where the batteries are and can attack them in saturation?

What is the solution then? Strategic offensive action. As soon as 1 brahmos/Scalp comes our way, 10 Supersonic missile from our side hit their side. Strategic paralysis and restrain is akin to snatching defeat from the jaws of 7th may victory.

its even worse on the 054a's btw.

Ive been screaming from the top of my lungs- those ships will not survive.

They have a serious limitation in terms of saturation attacks- 2 missiles per channel, 8 in total. This is exactly what killed the Moskva- trying to intercept a TB2 on one side, but not being able to guide a missile on the other side at the same time etc

 

[Bilal]

But I have some concerns.
1- China doesn't face brahmos threat

China does face Brahmos type threat. It’s called Hsuing Feng 3. Which has been deployed very much as a type of threat Pakistan is facing.

 

[Falcon26]

Our ADS will not be battling brahmos only. It will loitering munitions, Drones, probing aerial devices, Harops, Air to Ground Munitions. In the mix will come the Brahmos. Pakistan has limited number of HQ series batteries and LY-80 and no one is capable to handle saturation attacks.

Did you forget DGISPR press conferences? How he said, Our ADS are in passive mode, as India can easily identify where the batteries are and can attack them in saturation?

What is the solution then? Strategic offensive action. As soon as 1 brahmos/Scalp comes our way, 10 Supersonic missile from our side hit their side. Strategic paralysis and restrain is akin to snatching defeat from the jaws of 7th may victory.

If you notice, India gradually increased the temp of its drones and missile attacks. As no Pakistan response came for days, India went full throttle. Had Pakistan escalated at the first sight of these drones and missiles, India would not have swarmed Pakistan with drones and missiles. Which makes Asim’s decision to reward himself with a field Marshall rank all the more buffing.

 

[Ak01]

I have been a loud proponent of Pakistan acquiring the SOM cruise missiles from Turkey and have some have said that’s pointless since Pakistan has Ra’ad. Not considering the fact Ra’ad is at least a generation behind SOM, the futility of this argument was in full display in May.

as Aseem mentioned, we're a design heavy, but production light country- we dont even need SOM's, weve got a great design, using local components (NTJ-1) in the form of rasoob, something we can scale up

 

[Mighty_Dragon_Strike]

India could currently have a stockpile of 3,000 BrahMos missiles. With a new factory being added next year, production numbers will rise significantly in the coming years, particularly over the next three to five years.


This even eliminates the surprise attack factor—an initial volley of 500 BrahMos missiles could be enough to neutralize all strategic assets, with the next volley finishing the job.


However, this situation can be addressed. Every hubris has an unseen counterweight.

 

[mythbuster]

The army has always been the weakest link in the Pakistan military. It’s badly run and inefficient which is not surprising given its extracurricular activities.

It's not badly run or inefficient......8 billion dollars of budget is hardly enough to pay for the salaries.....

 

[Ak01]

India could currently have a stockpile of 3,000 BrahMos missiles. With a new factory being added next year, production numbers will rise significantly in the coming years, particularly over the next three to five years.


This even eliminates the surprise attack factor—an initial volley of 500 BrahMos missiles could be enough to neutralize all strategic assets, with the next volley finishing the job.


However, this situation can be addressed. Every hubris has an unseen counterweight.

"This even eliminates the surprise attack factor—an initial volley of 500 BrahMos missiles could be enough to neutralize all strategic assets, with the next volley finishing the job."

Literally bingo- this is literally the entire point

 

[Salza]

They might have upset the Indians, who were raining down Brahmos strikes.

The only reason I find why Babar missile didn't come into play that we have Babar missiles in limited numbers. We should had at least used 4-5 Babar missiles when India was actively using their cruise missile technology.

 

[Fatman17]

What you should wonder is *how many* they have- this is where you will see the desperation of the situation, vs the thousands of BrahMos stocks.

I think you can manufacture 100+ per year. Thousands???. More self delusion.

 

[Fatman17]

"This even eliminates the surprise attack factor—an initial volley of 500 BrahMos missiles could be enough to neutralize all strategic assets, with the next volley finishing the job."

Literally bingo- this is literally the entire point

Then why didn't you. You had the opportunity

 

[Bilal]

as Aseem mentioned, we're a design heavy, but production light country- we dont even need SOM's, weve got a great design, using local components (NTJ-1) in the form of rasoob, something we can scale up

And beyond. The next frontier is CMMT and Baracuda type low cost (high deployment number) systems.

Sarkash/Rasoob potentially provide that base.

 

[Mighty_Dragon_Strike]

I think you can manufacture 100+ per year. Thousands???. More self delusion.

you could argue, but that changed in second world war.....

If they decide to build Brahmos NG or hyper sonic version faster, I dont think, this is un-doable. They just never saw, such maximization of power projection from only one system!