Pakistan has a Problem | Quwa Group - My Counter Thoughts

[Yasser76]

@Yasser76

so in fact PAF acheived air superiority?

Yes, of course. But that didnt prevent its airbases from getting roasted, did it?

Regards

"Roasted"

The maintenece hangers at 3 bases is "roasted"!? Runway being repaied within hours.

Are you on crack?

You just admitted your air force was too scared of the PAF, the next phase of this war would have been PAF hunting down everything that had a green uniform on in Northern India

 

[Waz]

I am sick of the BrahMos Hype . BrahMost isn’t some silver bullet. India fired 40 to 50 of them, and what’s the outcome? A few damaged hangars? Not a single high-value target taken out. Zero.

Yeah, it’s fast—but it turns like a 16-wheeler ( cant do effective midcourse correction). And it’s been jammed, spoofed, and even shot down. There are plenty of images showing the wreckage, and even a video of one slamming into an empty field outside Lahore. So let’s not pretend it was some game-changing weapon. The hype doesn’t match the results.

Why would Brahmos be a threat to China. The Chinese already have something far superior than the Brahmos , its called CJ-100 CM (DF-100). Its faster ( Hypersonic) and has a bigger range and better navigation.
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Yep that's an excellent place to start addressing needs. I already put this up. Fire these off and they will slam deep into India facilities and take out anything they hit.
Meanwhile start to work on a supersonic version of Babur.

 

[Rebirth]

The issue is, because of the rate at which it closes in at, you will need an exceptionally agile missile, like CAMM/IRIS-T. This is why we mention, the biggest weight will be carried on the shoulder of really agile MR/SRSAM's, not massive poles like HQ-16/9. This time its not a matter of interception ranges, rather, reaction speed. We need to plug that sr-mrsam gap ASAP with systems like CAMM and co which can get out fast and kill. The MRSAMs were also what did most of the work on the Indian side too, QRSAM/Barak 8.

PA/PAF AD currently looks like this
LRSAM
HQ-9P/BE
HQ16FE
160km+

MRSAM
HQ16B/EV
FD2000
125km+


SRSAM
SOME HQ-16A
40km

CIWS
SPADA
15-20km?

This massive gap between MRSAM-CIWS is the problem.

The reality is the HQ series are derived off of older soviet long range designs, suffering from the same limitations. A one missile does all approach, if you look at other systems, PATRIOT, IRIS T, S400 etc, they all use different missiles for different target type, because u simply cannot just have one missile that will be amazing against hypersonics but also long range fighter engagements etc. We need to plug that gap

PN already operates Albatross NG which is advance version of CAMM and can handle Brahmos type missiles.

 

[Rebirth]

Quote:

Which is better BrahMos or YJ-12 missile?


AI Overview



+3

The YJ-12 and BrahMos are both supersonic cruise missiles, but the YJ-12 is faster and has a longer range than the BrahMos. The YJ-12 can reach speeds up to Mach 3, while the BrahMos travels at Mach 2.8. The YJ-12 also has a longer range, reaching approximately 500 km, compared to the BrahMos' range of 290 km.

Key Differences:

• Speed: YJ-12 is faster, reaching Mach 3, while BrahMos reaches Mach 2.8.
• Range: YJ-12 has a longer range (approximately 500 km) than BrahMos (290 km).
• Deployment: The YJ-12 is available in land, air, and naval variants, offering versatile deployment options. The BrahMos is primarily deployed on land, ships, and submarines.
  

YJ-12 (Chinese Missile):

• Features: Mach 3+ supersonic speed, land, air, and naval variants.
• Range: Approximately 500 km.
• Capabilities: Anti-ship, and land-attack capabilities.
  

BrahMos (Indian-Russian Missile):

• Features: Mach 2.8 supersonic speed, two-stage design with a solid propellant booster and a liquid ramjet.
• Range: 290 km.
• Capabilities: Primarily anti-ship, also capable of land-attack.

Unquote:

 

[chinasun]

The BrahMos missile claims the ability to achieve saturation strikes with dozens of missiles working in coordination,with a speed of 2.8 Mach and a range of 300 kilometers.This could potentially put pressure on China's air defense system.However,in simulated exercises,China's HQ-9B air defense missile system has successfully intercepted simulated BrahMos missiles at a distance of around 200 kilometers.China has also effectively jammed the GPS signals of simulated BrahMos missiles through electronic countermeasures,reducing their accuracy.

In reality,in any foreseeable conflict between China and India,India might only resort to using sticks or other cold weapons.This is because China has deployed its most advanced equipment,such as the J-20,on the border.Even if India is overly confident,they know there is no chance of winning.

 

[SoulSpokesman]

@chinasun

You are right. IND will lose any war with PRC. I don't think it will pick a fight with PRC.

Regards

 

[the vicious kind]

@Yasser76

so in fact PAF acheived air superiority?

Yes, of course. But that didnt prevent its airbases from getting roasted, did it?

Regards

So you count a few destroyed hangers as "roasting" an Airbase. The level of amateurism across the border is truly a sight to behold. Here is a fact, Saudi FM landed on Nur Khan airbase 6-7 hours after it was "Roasted". While your entire western aircommand was grounded for 2 days ( FACT : your CDS himself admitted this. ) and the only way a military analyst would describe that is the IAF lost air superiority . Whats more effective , minimal damage to an airbase or shooting doing enemy planes and grounding multiple squadrons

 

[Rational Philosopher]

There are two sides of this discussion that are typically overlapping here:

The first is: Saturation missile strikes against our critical infrastructure, by supersonic cruise missiles like BrahMos and potentially hypersonic in the future. And our ability to reliably intercept or repulse such an attack.

The second is: Our own conventional missile arsenal that can reliably penetrate and strike targets deep inside India (500km - 2000km minimum) to emulate the same.

@Rebirth For the second, Pakistan could sign a deal with China for ToT for YJ-12 and then locally produce it. This will acquire the basic ability but the scale of inventory (production) is also a main thing to consider. There's also other systems to consider like hypersonic glide vehicles, and long-range equivalents of something like DF-21D/Iskander.

 

[SoulSpokesman]

@the vicious kind

So you count a few destroyed hangers as "roasting" an Airbase.

Did you go through the podcast? The speakers contention is that a larger number of Brahmos would have done just that.

My simile of roasting the hangers was no more incorrect than the IAF being decimated.

Yes, our IAF got grounded for a couple of days. But what did your PAF achieve after the first day- a day on where IAF and our own ADS were under instruction not to hit PAK military assets?

Regards

 

[Rebirth]

There are two sides of this discussion that are typically overlapping here:

The first is: Saturation missile strikes against our critical infrastructure, by supersonic cruise missiles like BrahMos and potentially hypersonic in the future. And our ability to reliably intercept or repulse such an attack.

The second is: Our own conventional missile arsenal that can reliably penetrate and strike targets deep inside India (500km - 2000km minimum) to emulate the same.

@Rebirth For the second, Pakistan could sign a deal with China for ToT for YJ-12 and then locally produce it. This will acquire the basic ability but the scale of inventory (production) is also a main thing to consider. There's also other systems to consider like hypersonic glide vehicles, and long-range equivalents of something like DF-21D/Iskander.

Pakistan already have YJ-12s export version called C-302 with Pakistan Navy and SMASH is initial work in regards of having DF-21D type capability.

 

[guangdongt]

I think the most effective way in the end is to purchase our missiles, because buying technology and local manufacturing costs is a huge issue. Modern high-tech missiles are very complex. China's vast and complete manufacturing industry can minimize costs. On the contrary, if you go back and produce it yourself, the technology is complex and requires a large number of related supporting facilities. Exquisite and complex parts require a lot of funds, which is simply not feasible during wartime. Geography lacks depth, and the enemy may find ways to destroy manufacturing points. Even if China's cost is reduced to the lowest level to supply missiles to Pakistan, it will still be a very expensive continuous consumption during wartime. I have observed that your leaders have visited Muslim countries continuously after the war, and you need to do everything possible to get all kinds of support, including the United States. On the other hand, if Pakistan solves the problem of money, with China's huge manufacturing capacity and supply chain, India will cry，Taking the PL15 missile as an example, the cost price we produce cannot be achieved by any country in the world. In fact, there is no large-scale industrial price on this planet that can be lower than ours.

 

[fallschirmjager786]

Not sure what is going on in the background. But I agree with that Chinese mil blogger who was discussing the PL-15 shoot down. Pakistan leadership was not confident in their ability to inflict extensive damage on the Indians and to utilize their local air dominance to inflict even more damage to Indian bases/Materiel.

At the same time, I don't think that the Indians are also confident in their abilities. The fact that they resorted to Brahmos strikes means that they have now shown their hand. Pakistani planners will take note and prepare appropriate counter measures.

Pakistan forces need to grow a spine, the weak political situation domestically is hampering a coherent plan. Pakistan needs to have contingency plans for the next show down with the appropriate steps marked out and the steps that need to be taken to ensure adequate punishment to ensure deterrence.

 

[SoulSpokesman]

@guangdongt

Your hypothesis is correct subject to one caveat. That the Chinese will sell their weapons/systems to PAK at cost price or at minimal mark up. With that in place, there is no way Pakistani or any other industry can match your prices. But the Q is will you do so?.

There is another fact to be kept in mind. Today IND-PRC relations are poor that is why PRC maybe tempted to sell weapons at very attractive terms. What if IND and PRC were to have a rapprochement? Now it may seem a theoretical possibility, no national govt can not keep such possibilities aside while framing national policies. For that reason, all countries incl PAK must keep a minimum certain procurement local, even if it means paying a higher price than Chinese prices.

Regards

 

[the vicious kind]

@the vicious kind

So you count a few destroyed hangers as "roasting" an Airbase.

Did you go through the podcast? The speakers contention is that a larger number of Brahmos would have done just that.

My simile of roasting the hangers was no more incorrect than the IAF being decimated.

Yes, our IAF got grounded for a couple of days. But what did your PAF achieve after the first day- a day on where IAF and our own ADS were under instruction not to hit PAK military assets?

Regards

I completly disagree with that contention aswell . SOM Missile strikes or SSM alone are quite ineffective at taking out airbases or decimating an any airforce . PAF operations are decentralized (see Air Marshal Retd Arshad Malik Interview) , making it harder to cripple an entire force with a single missile attack. Aircraft can be dispersed and readily moved, hardened shelters can be built, rapid runway repair teams can be on hand , thus nulifying the impact of even effective precisions strikes. Not to mention, PAF has already excercised landings and take off from multiple highways.

Historically, for instance, during the 2017 Shayrat missile strike, the U.S. launched 59 Tomahawk cruise missiles at a Syrian airbase. Despite the scale of the attack, the airbase resumed operations within hours, indicating limited long-term disruption.

Furthermore, despite Russia firing 2700+ Kh-55s, P-800s, Kalibers and even Kinhzals , the Ukrainian Command and control is still operational and carriying out strikes , sometimes in mainland russia. I belive RAND has a study on Airbase Vulnerability, you should go check it out. The only way to effectivaly " Decapitate" PAF assets would be to use hundered of SPICE 2000s PGMS but for that IAF would have to first suppress AD and then inflitrate atleast 300KM inside Pakistan.

 

[Vapnope]

@Waz @Fatman17 Every single thread about our topic is littered by Indians with the same stupid questions. Can you please do something about it?
There are other threads where Indian can self congratulate them at least leave some for us to discuss the topics without their trolling, please.