Pakistan, Kuwait discuss expanded defence pact: report

[Owaiz]

No one wants Indian forces on their soil for many reasons

Perhaps not, but, even if they did, I don't think India would be interested. They have a long-standing policy of staying out of formal alliances. It did appear the UAE wanted to have a closer and more formal military alliance ,with India, but it was India that resisted getting too close, probably to keep their options open with the Saudis and Iran.

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

100% agree. Pakistan needs to get as much as possible out if these agreements.

Longer term we need to look at the equipment equation. Pakistan is blessed with vast pools of excellent and well trained military manpower but it is obvious that is agreements with Qatar and Kuwait come to be be similar to the Saudi agreement we need to look at a radical and extensive equipment overhaul, especially to Navy and PAF.
Also for the first time Pakistan will need to invest in power projection and large scale deployment capability.

Having these agreements will mean a few things

1) A permanent presence of fighter planes (1 sqd minimum or even a wing)
2) A more permanent naval patrol in the Persian Gulf
3) A light infantry or armoured brigade in each country
4) SAM and possibly even AEW

Right now Pakistan simply cannot spare all of that for Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Qatar. Additionally very few of our assets can be linked with the mainly US kit these countries use Any deals would be just paper unless we have a massive revamp.

Unsure how the finances, procurement and logistics work here

As long as the Arab states are willing to foot the bill, Pakistan is well placed to provide the military interoperability, training, and operational coordination required across the region on a war footing.

 

[Yasser76]

Perhaps not, but, even if they did, I don't think India would be interested. They have a long-standing policy of staying out of formal alliances. It did appear the UAE wanted to have a closer and more formal military alliance ,with India, but it was India that resisted getting to close, probably to keep their options open with the Saudis and Iran.

Not really, I think after May 2025 global military perceptions of India changed, on top of that no Arab country would want thousands of Hindu troops on it's soil. Also Pakistani military (especially the air force) are a known quantity and highly respected in Qatar, Bahrain and Saudi. India never quite had that presence in any Arab country with any significant scale. India is desperate to export manpower, it would dream of having it's soldiers in the Gulf, but that will never happen

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

Perhaps not, but, even if they did, I don't think India would be interested. They have a long-standing policy of staying out of formal alliances. It did appear the UAE wanted to have a closer and more formal military alliance ,with India, but it was India that resisted getting to close, probably to keep their options open with the Saudis and Iran.

In my view, India is primarily interested in securing access to overseas air and naval facilities, but its ability to project power remains constrained by the need to maintain a substantial military focus on Pakistan.

 

[Yasser76]

In my view, India is primarily interested in securing access to overseas air and naval facilities, but its ability to project power remains constrained by the need to maintain a substantial military focus on Pakistan.

India can hardly defende it's air space, and apart from Rafales, it's jets would actually be far outclassed by anything in the Gulf states, and it only has around 30 Rafales

 

[Master Chief]

As long as the Arab states are willing to foot the bill, Pakistan is well placed to provide the military interoperability, training, and operational coordination required across the region on a war footing.

This alone is extremely poor justification for Pakistanis risking life and limb for the interests of an inherently weak artifical construct of a nation state.

Pakistani geostrategic objectives will not be fulfilled by pandering to the security needs of the bureaucratically inept.

It would become far more useful if genuine political mileage were to be extracted from such agreements. This preferred outcome simply won't manifest. What is actually transpiring here is a fool's errand. Any brief "financial gains" will be pissed away for nothing.

There is no fast-track to greatness. It requires a marathon slog from the entirety of society.

Feel free to bookmark this prophecy and revisit it in 3 years.

 

[Yasser76]

This alone is extremely poor justification for Pakistanis risking life and limb for the interests of an inherently weak artifical construct of a nation state.

Pakistani geostrategic objectives will not be fulfilled by pandering to the security needs of the bureaucratically inept.

It would become far more useful if genuine political mileage were to be extracted from such agreements. This preferred outcome simply won't manifest. What is actually transpiring here is a fool's errand. Any brief "financial gains" will be pissed away for nothing.

There is no fast-track to greatness. It requires a marathon slog from the entirety of society.

Feel free to bookmark this prophecy and revisit it in 3 years.

I am not so sure, for past few decades we have had a lot of loans, oil facilities and roll overs from Arab countries. I do agree, we need to develop ourselves to achieve greatness, no doubt about it, but to say past endevours were pissed up the wall is wrong.

When we tested back in 1998, Arabs basically propped up all of Pakistan for a year

 

[Owaiz]

Not really, I think after May 2025 global military perceptions of India changed, on top of that no Arab country would want thousands of Hindu troops on it's soil. Also Pakistani military (especially the air force) are a known quantity and highly respected in Qatar, Bahrain and Saudi. India never quite had that presence in any Arab country with any significant scale. India is desperate to export manpower, it would dream of having it's soldiers in the Gulf, but that will never happen

Let us agree to disagree. After the fiasco in Sri Lanka, India has been very wary of deploying their forces abroad. And renting out guns comes with its own geopolitical baggage, as we found out with UAE. FWIW, it was the UAE that pushed for the defence agreement with India and not the other way round, and given how close they are geopolitically, I don't they would have had a problem stationing Indian troops. But that is moot, because India will not want to compromise their relationship with Saudi Arabia and Iran by stationing troops in the UAE directed against them, but more fundamentally because it has never been part of their strategic culture. They have more to lose than to gain by doing so.

 

[Yasser76]

Let us agree to disagree. After the fiasco in Sri Lanka, India has been very wary of deploying their forces abroad. And renting out guns comes with its own geopolitical baggage, as we found out with UAE. FWIW, it was the UAE that pushed for the defence agreement with India and not the other way round, and given how close they are geopolitically, I don't they would have had a problem stationing Indian troops. But that is moot, because India will not want to compromise their relationship with Saudi Arabia and Iran by stationing troops in the UAE directed against them, but more fundamentally because it has never been part of their strategic culture. They have more to lose than to gain by doing so.

No one trusts India outside of the UAE, the Qatar Sub spy scandal was noted by everyone. Damn, maybe even the Emiratis really do not trust the Indians. Added to that India does very few exercises or joint training in GCC for some reason, which again leads me to think Arabs, as well as not trusting India, simply do not rate them

 

[Master Chief]

I am not so sure, for past few decades we have had a lot of loans, oil facilities and roll overs from Arab countries. I do agree, we need to develop ourselves to achieve greatness, no doubt about it, but to say past endevours were pissed up the wall is wrong.

When we tested back in 1998, Arabs basically propped up all of Pakistan for a year

Always value your well reasoned and well articulated insights. We differ on this matter but I sincerely hope I am wrong and you right about this.

 

[Owaiz]

In my view, India is primarily interested in securing access to overseas air and naval facilities, but its ability to project power remains constrained by the need to maintain a substantial military focus on Pakistan.

They also have a long border with China, the Andamans and commitments with the Quad, so they are stretched thin. In the Middle East, the most they are likely to do is regular joint exercises with Israel and UAE, and possibly the US ( I2U2).

 

[Yasser76]

Always value your well reasoned and well articulated insights. We differ on this matter but I sincerely hope I am wrong and you right about this.

Well I hope so too, we will see. I think, fundamentally any of these deals will not make Pakistan do what is required, and that is restucturing our economy from bottom up and investment in human resource.

If it can provide massive levels of investments (as the Kuwaitis are offering) and pour billions into our military so we can focus more of Pakistan's resources on education and welfare, then maybe it os nit so bad an outcome?

 

[r3alist]

The Middle East is too far for India to credibly assert any hegemonic ambition and they are not so desperate for cash or under such an obligation to any country that it requires them to send their armed forces

It really is not that far, nothing to do with hegemonic ambition, it's more about being scared of your own shadow outside of India

This whole framing of mercenary army and hegemony is slightly creepy and weird

You cannot exactly be a country off material consideration if all you can do is watch your investments and future plans go down the drain, chabahar and imec,

It is a wise policy that allows them to engage all the major powers like the Saudis, UAE , Israel , Iran and the smaller GCC states without being seen as a threat to anyone

I don't think it's wise not being seen as a threat in the world, in any case you only have to listen to internal Indian voices which lament their own lack of bravery and daring.

The main wisdom would be to not have their limitations exposed, no one in the middle East would see an army they invite as hemonic, the point would be are they useful and of value

Pakistan's military pact has already ruptured the relationship with the UAE

It was already ruptured long before, UAE can never compete with Saudi anyway

might lead to a confrontation with Iran

This is hyperbole

 

[r3alist]

would become far more useful if genuine political mileage were to be extracted from such agreements. This preferred outcome simply won't manifest. What is actually transpiring here is a fool's errand. Any brief "financial gains" will be pissed away for nothing.

Remember that Pakistan is now grouped in with the middle East as per the imf

You could interpret this as pivoting towards the middle East for economic activity, especially given South Asia is where it is


Not all benefits can be counted numerically, if for example in the messes with water, how could the Arab States go against or even neutral.

 

[r3alist]

, it was the UAE that pushed for the defence agreement with India and not the other way round, and given how close they are geopolitically, I don't they would have had a problem stationing Indian troops. But that is moot, because India will not want to compromise their relationship with Saudi Arabia and Iran by stationing troops in the UAE directed against them, but more fundamentally because it has never been part of their strategic culture. They have more to lose than to gain by doing so

The other perspective is India is hesitant to protect its financial equities within the UAE.

Because the economies are so linked however India does not have the stomach to annoy the Saudis. It's basically decision paralysis, you can only pass-off decision paralysis as wisdom now and again

Fundamentally if you are a big country that has a self perception of heft, even civilizational prestige, always talking about civilizational links....... So what's the issue issue?