Pakistan Missiles - Updates, News & Discussion

[falcon34]

Iran doctrine is based on missiles and pak on air force i know but during India pak conflict pak missile capability applied was around 10 percent of impacts at best possible which was no way near to requirement to deter enemy because we didnot have the capability like iran and recent missile technology of all nuclear powers are upto the mark and latest except pak. It demonstrates massive loop holes in our missile capabilities thats why i tell our missile program is decades behind and in big ambiguity stuck in 1980s 1990s. every one idea is just fire air to air PL15 AND Pl17 and win the conflict that's not how it works and PAF should be supported by Barrage of ballistic missile and crusie missile on Indian bases that will make you compete on all strategic and tactical levels. Paf can shoot down multiple planes but they will still have to land on air bases you can buy time only by making their bases un operational too. Arguments comes we don't have the money but we can buy j35, kj500, hq-19. Better to spend that money on missiles RND which india posses like supersonic and Marv ballistic missile for conventional role and we don't have that and spending on 5th gen which india does not have sounds unsensible when j10c showed they are more than enough for now. Final conclusion is pak have to spend billions of dollars on its missile program now there is no choice left it has become mandatory other wise we would loose control of escalation ladder.

You really think there are fools in strategic corps. Shaheen series has PBV and MARV, which literally makes immune to almost all the ADs around the world and Ababeel is Shaheen 3 on steroids. As far as conventional missiles are concerned work is going in that field quite rapidly than India, we showed restraint but that doesn't mean we don't have the means to hit India hard with missiles everything is there.
And if there wasn't a distance of over a thousand KM involved, Israeli air force would have violated Iran like crazy, Iran's greatest defence is it's distance from Israel not those missiles.

 

[JamD]

I'm in agreement with this, our part of the world (MENA/SA) absolutely love performative flashy optics and are desparate for some wins, but they ignore the actual strategic and practical benefit.

It might look cool and flashy seeing missiles streaking the skies but there was very limited damage to strategic infrastructure that could truly hurt Israel. Mostly random buildings and side roads.

On the other hand Israel dominated Iranian airspace and was using cost-effective munitions (JDAMs) in mass to strike a large number of high-value targets at will. At one point the Iranian foreign minister had to ask for permission from Israel to utilise his own airspace.

From Iran's perspective, I think a logical evolution to seek out is large MIRV missiles. It could work out more economical for them if a single missile can deliver multiple warheads paired with some decoys, as opposed to simply 1 missile, 1 warhead.

Imagine a theoretical single missile deploying 5 warheads and 3 decoys, mass launched. This will allow for better saturation and perhaps the goal should be to shift away from precision strikes (difficult to actually do at that speed-distance) but just mass random strikes.

Launching in small intervals throughout the day to keep the opponent in panic (since it's a small country that uses shelters) would make life unliveable.

For precision strikes, they could try utilising stealth sub-sonic cruise missiles launched from shorter ranges, or even an Iskander-type missile that worked well in Ukraine. Key will be launching closer in range to prevent early detection and mixing it in with BM salvos.

I don't think they'll ever get access to a decent air force. For Pakistan, our Air Force will remain a central strategy, with a wide range of SEAD/DEAD options, cost-effective JDAMs, subsonic stealth cruise missiles, and BM will be complementary in limited numbers, not a primary weapon.

Since this thread is Pakistani missiles, I don't want to derail it too much - however, I just want to give my 2 cents on what Iran could do by putting myself in their shoes.

It is evident to me that BMs won't work because for them to be effective I need to have 10s of thousands of them, which I cannot afford, I can probably spend money elsewhere.

I need to go on a war path procurement of fighter jets - something with legs since Iran is a large country. Also you need a good number at least 150.

Furthermore, the foreign policy needs more pragmatism than just antagonizing everyone that you can.

Unfortunately, there is no practical method for Iran to fight Israel in any meaningful way. Power projection is hard, there is a reason only a few countries can do it.

The focus needs to be on a good defensive posture - this is something impossible without an airforce. Iran may have to sacrifice some of its foreign policy goals and sovereignty to align with the Chinese and buy a Chinese-made Iranian air force - 150 J10s, 100 J-35s, AWACS, training.

Also the redundant dual force structure needs to be resolved. One army, not two.

 

[falcon34]

As you said, Pakistan's situation is very different. We have a very competent airforce. PAF has always wanted to fly into India to conduct strike missions - recall Pathankot strike in 65. I believe this is the reason for PAF's interest in J35 and Kaan as well. Also S400 strike in the current conflict is an indication.

Delivery systems for nukes are already there and being improved. That is an entirely different discussion compare to conventionally equipped BMs. We have between 150 and 200 nukes to be distributed amongst a variety of systems - not just BMs. And we have highly capable BMs that we have demonstrated to have very high accuracy. Furthermore, I have no reason to doubt that they have features to try to evade ABMs, which is an especially difficult task for India, given our proximity to them.

One thing that we can learn is to add a small rocket motor to the warhead section for additional terminal speed - I have not seen this feature obviously present on our BMs. Of course the benefit needs to be weighed against the cost.

All Shaheen series missile have a PBV. Gives it maneuverability in space, gives it a very steep angle of attack.

 

[Rational Philosopher]

Since this thread is Pakistani missiles, I don't want to derail it too much - however, I just want to give my 2 cents on what Iran could do by putting myself in their shoes.

It is evident to me that BMs won't work because for them to be effective I need to have 10s of thousands of them, which I cannot afford, I can probably spend money elsewhere.

I need to go on a war path procurement of fighter jets - something with legs since Iran is a large country. Also you need a good number at least 150.

Furthermore, the foreign policy needs more pragmatism than just antagonizing everyone that you can.

Unfortunately, there is no practical method for Iran to fight Israel in any meaningful way. Power projection is hard, there is a reason only a few countries can do it.

The focus needs to be on a good defensive posture - this is something impossible without an airforce. Iran may have to sacrifice some of its foreign policy goals and sovereignty to align with the Chinese and buy a Chinese-made Iranian air force - 150 J10s, 100 J-35s, AWACS, training.

Also the redundant dual force structure needs to be resolved. One army, not two.

From the political side of things, this would be smart but I doubt the IRGC is going to be willing to make these concessions because it sort of eliminates their whole revolutionary existence. At that point a normal government returning makes sense.

 

[falcon34]

I don't remember Pakistan hitting any Indian military or economic targets with either air force or jdam or missiles. There was lot of talk and disinfo, no real proof was ever provided. Pakistan did well defensively and flopped on offense. So it would be good to learn from Iran whose missiles penetrated a shield far stronger than India and caused considerable damage inside Israel. Pakistan has a similar need to be able to hit long range targets deep inside India.

Iran absorbed very heavy blows on the first day of the war yet was able to respond and hit Israel the same day, unlike Pakistani high command which sat confused for four days and allowed Pakistan to be hit nonstop. That would be something to look into also.

The indians themselves admitted damage to around 5 airbases, Pakistani targets were C&C nodes, information centers we didn't catered runways, we hit indian nerve centers. Where it hurt them the most, everyone's been trying to dig up cratered runways but nobody bothers looking at Indian C&C.

 

[Oscar]

Waiting for the copium comments from certain folks/groups on how Iran is the only one that stood up with battle tested systems and so on.

The only thing that works is an integrated philosophy - BMs have utility in their ability to be used in concert with CMs, UAVs and manned systems to present disparate engagement problems for Air Defense systems.

You do need hypersonics - but in their own they are targets for sufficient interceptions combined with spoofing(which is also what Iranians BMs went through as well - courtesy of Israeli drivers seeing their samsung phones give completely off locations from both GPS and Glonass)

 

[Rational Philosopher]

You really think there are fools in strategic corps. Shaheen series has PBV and MARV, which literally makes immune to almost all the ADs around the world and Ababeel is Shaheen 3 on steroids. As far as conventional missiles are concerned work is going in that field quite rapidly than India, we showed restraint but that doesn't mean we don't have the means to hit India hard with missiles everything is there.
And if there wasn't a distance of over a thousand KM involved, Israeli air force would have violated Iran like crazy, Iran's greatest defence is it's distance from Israel not those missiles.

PBV is mostly used for correcting the deployment trajectory in space for the warhead, it doesn't mean a MaRV directly.

MaRV is related to the warhead design itself. See the Pershing, or China's DF-21/26.

Also, no, India's quite a bit ahead in missile development including conventional.

 

[JamD]

All Shaheen series missile have a PBV. Gives it maneuverability in space, gives it a very steep angle of attack.

Yes, but that is not what I was referring to. I am referring to this approach:


A PBV maneuvers but doesn't impart very high terminal speed to relatively short range BMs, which is something the above solution does. I don't know how useful that speed is, but it does seem like a good idea worth studying.

Just some context, something like an ICBM or a very long range MRBM is traveling really fast terminally simply because it needed to go really fast to travel that range. However, an MRBM with lets say 500km range is barely going Mach 2 terminally, usually less actually. For a system like that you can sacrifice some of the warhead weight with a rocket motor to provide thrust to the warhead in the terminal phase, letting it go somewhere in the Mach 3-5 ballpark. This is what the pictured system is about.

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

Since this thread is Pakistani missiles, I don't want to derail it too much - however, I just want to give my 2 cents on what Iran could do by putting myself in their shoes.

It is evident to me that BMs won't work because for them to be effective I need to have 10s of thousands of them, which I cannot afford, I can probably spend money elsewhere.

I need to go on a war path procurement of fighter jets - something with legs since Iran is a large country. Also you need a good number at least 150.

Furthermore, the foreign policy needs more pragmatism than just antagonizing everyone that you can.

Unfortunately, there is no practical method for Iran to fight Israel in any meaningful way. Power projection is hard, there is a reason only a few countries can do it.

The focus needs to be on a good defensive posture - this is something impossible without an airforce. Iran may have to sacrifice some of its foreign policy goals and sovereignty to align with the Chinese and buy a Chinese-made Iranian air force - 150 J10s, 100 J-35s, AWACS, training.

Also the redundant dual force structure needs to be resolved. One army, not two.

And Iran also need to develop drones which are specially designed for SEAD/DEAD purposes.

 

[gamaji]

I don't remember Pakistan hitting any Indian military or economic targets with either air force or jdam or missiles. There was lot of talk and disinfo, no real proof was ever provided. Pakistan did well defensively and flopped on offense. So it would be good to learn from Iran whose missiles penetrated a shield far stronger than India and caused considerable damage inside Israel. Pakistan has a similar need to be able to hit long range targets deep inside India.

Iran absorbed very heavy blows on the first day of the war yet was able to respond and hit Israel the same day, unlike Pakistani high command which sat confused for four days and allowed Pakistan to be hit nonstop. That would be something to look into also.

Pakistan did well defensively and flopped on offense....
Really? I think you are probably referring that Pakistan didn’t fire BMs against India. If so, then please note that BMs, especially IRBMs, are generally considered strategic weapon systems. If Iran used SRBMs and IRBMs for tactical gains (though these gains by themselves are questionable) is due to the fact that Iranians had no other choice or capability to hit Israel.

Pakistan had more than enough choices to optimally hit India for tactical and strategic gains without even resorting to the use of BMs. Another aspect to keep in mind is the use of BMs by a nuclear power is a serious escalation. The fact that Indians resorted doing that was again due to the fact that Indians had little other choices. Their air force miserably failed, navy stayed at a safe distance from Pakistani waters, and army was already getting severe beating at the hands of Pak army. Modi had no other choice than resorting to send drones and BrahMos missiles into Pakistan. That was more of a desperation on Modi's part than show of Indian power.

 

[gamaji]

You really think there are fools in strategic corps. Shaheen series has PBV and MARV, which literally makes immune to almost all the ADs around the world and Ababeel is Shaheen 3 on steroids. As far as conventional missiles are concerned work is going in that field quite rapidly than India, we showed restraint but that doesn't mean we don't have the means to hit India hard with missiles everything is there.
And if there wasn't a distance of over a thousand KM involved, Israeli air force would have violated Iran like crazy, Iran's greatest defence is it's distance from Israel not those missiles.

Agree with you. However, some people feel disappointed that Pakistan didn't use a strategic weapon (like a BM) to throw 500kg of explosives onto Indians. Does it make sense?

 

[Quwa]

Israel is quite far away from Iran, has the entire western world providing it sensor data, and is tiny.

India is right next door, does not have the benefit of the sensors of the entire western world, and is large.

I am reasonably sure more than 30% BMs would get through in an Indo-Pak scenario. More like 90%.

I think, one unsung aspect of Pakistan's BM program is that it's shifting towards 'agile' and 'responsive' systems.

There's an emphasis via Fatah, Abdali (new), SMASH and, later, the P282 to have BMs that can be produced more easily at scale, and deployed through a very wide range of platforms, be it land, sea, and even air (CM-400AKG and, just IMO, a local ALBM in the future).

It's possible that there's some commonality between designs like Fatah, SMASH, and Abdali (new) to further simplify the production process.

In this sense, I think hypersonics would come in as more of a future variant that will be the only BM type produced. So, once P282 comes online, then (IMO) there'd be a land-launched and possibly air-launched variant all produced on a common design, and it'd be the only one under production in its specific weight and range class.

 

[RescueRanger]

Good hogaya aapko krl mey lagatey hain

Hahaha thank you for that .

 

[RescueRanger]

And Iran also need to develop drones which are specially designed for SEAD/DEAD purposes.

Thread is on Pakistan missiles systems. Stay on topic please.

 

[Rational Philosopher]

Whatever happened to the P282? Some reports claimed it was just the internal name for SMASH, which is plausible since we saw a storage facility notification a while back but it was SMASH that was publicly revealed.