Pakistan Navy | News & Discussions

[ghazi52]

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[CSAW]

"KSEW turns into a future Backbone for PN , in its quest for achieving its stated fleet vision of 20 Surface Vessels & 11 AIP Submarines, with the help of Local Ventures based on Turk, Chinese & other JVs."

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[ghazi52]

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[Awwad]

PN "MSV" fleet most probably in between 20 - 24 vessels by 2032-35:

• 4 - 054A/Ps
• 4 - Milgem CORVs
• 4 - F22Ps (MLU ??)
• 4 - Damen OPVs (1900t/2300t)
• 6/8 - Jinnah-class FFGs

Bro, I would love if this happens. Maybe you have some inside information which other's don't have. Not sure, if PN or KSEW have ever said that they are going to build 6 or 8 Jinnah frigates? Idk, how this number was formed. It could be possible that PN is only looking to build 2 or 4 JCF?. The 20 MSV still adds up (4 54As, 4 F22Ps, 4 Milgem, 4 Damens, 4 Jinnah) Or perhaps PN orders 2 more OPVs and settles for just 2 JCF?


Secondly, on manufacturing timeline, you know Pakistan has only one shipyard, You can check the duration it took for KSEW to build the past ships. What KSEW is going to do this time to increase its production rate? Secondly, can KSEW do parallel production of large vessels ? if yes then how many ? Let's see the closest example Babur corvettes. PN is building 2 ships at Karachi since 2018. None of the ship is delivered yet. may take another 2 years for the last ship to deliver. We must remember that the project already paid for and heavily supported by Turks directly. They are with KSEW at every step. When PN will be at its own and building even heavier ship then how come it will manufacture it faster? Even If we consider Baburs as benchmark then it took 8 years for PN to make just 2 ships ( 2018 to 2026). So from 2026 to 2034, PN will be able to produce 2 JCF if everything goes smooth. Unless PN has adopted some strategy / new shipyards / new partners or something which I am not aware of. Share your knowledge, I would really love to believe and know that PN will have 6 JCF by 2032-35.

 

[Quwa]

Bro, I would love if this happens. Maybe you have some inside information which other's don't have. Not sure, if PN or KSEW have ever said that they are going to build 6 or 8 Jinnah frigates? Idk, how this number was formed. It could be possible that PN is only looking to build 2 or 4 JCF?. The 20 MSV still adds up (4 54As, 4 F22Ps, 4 Milgem, 4 Damens, 4 Jinnah) Or perhaps PN orders 2 more OPVs and settles for just 2 JCF?


Secondly, on manufacturing timeline, you know Pakistan has only one shipyard, You can check the duration it took for KSEW to build the past ships. What KSEW is going to do this time to increase its production rate? Secondly, can KSEW do parallel production of large vessels ? if yes then how many ? Let's see the closest example Babur corvettes. PN is building 2 ships at Karachi since 2018. None of the ship is delivered yet. may take another 2 years for the last ship to deliver. We must remember that the project already paid for and heavily supported by Turks directly. They are with KSEW at every step. When PN will be at its own and building even heavier ship then how come it will manufacture it faster? Even If we consider Baburs as benchmark then it took 8 years for PN to make just 2 ships ( 2018 to 2026). So from 2026 to 2034, PN will be able to produce 2 JCF if everything goes smooth. Unless PN has adopted some strategy / new shipyards / new partners or something which I am not aware of. Share your knowledge, I would really love to believe and know that PN will have 6 JCF by 2032-35.

KSEW cut the steel of its first MILGEM in 2020 and launched its first ship in 2022, while it cut the steel of its second ship in 2021 and launched it in 2023. So, the turnaround period from cutting steel to launching the ship at KSEW is 2 years per ship.

Two years is the production rate at KSEW; the rest of the time goes into sea trials, integration, and testing, which takes a while for new designs. That's why it's a good idea to leverage the existing overhead so that the integration and testing don't take as long.

And that's one key reason why the PN will acquire more than 2 or even 4 JCFs. The JCF is an original design created by ASFAT and NRDI with the PN's direct input. It was a purpose-built frigate for the PN's needs, especially its long-term requirements. For example, it's scalable in that the design can be enlarged (e.g., AS3600), giving the PN a great platform to build on.

So, we know the PN will order at least 6 ships from secondary sources - not the best, but they have been dependable. However, it's also self-evident. If the PN wants to lower the cost of its ship acquisitions, then it'll leverage as much of the overhead of the first JCF pair as much as it can via subsequent ships. In other words, when you build more ships of the same type, costs drop and timelines shorten.

As for output, KSEW was expanded via a ship-lift-and-transfer system that connects 13 in-land production sites to a dock. The rail system can handle ships of up to 8,000 tons. KSEW is no longer bottlenecked by its docks regarding ship production.

So, the ability to churn out 6 JCFs by the mid-2030s is certainly there. Of course, there are a few other factors that will affect the timeline, e.g., funding, building experience of working with input vendors directly (for engines, steel, electronics, etc), trials and testing, and integration.

That said, ASFAT will be there as a sub-contractor throughout to help NRDI and KSEW with the process.

 

[Awwad]

KSEW cut the steel of its first MILGEM in 2020 and launched its first ship in 2022, while it cut the steel of its second ship in 2021 and launched it in 2023. So, the turnaround period from cutting steel to launching the ship at KSEW is 2 years per ship.

Two years is the production rate at KSEW; the rest of the time goes into sea trials, integration, and testing, which takes a while for new designs. That's why it's a good idea to leverage the existing overhead so that the integration and testing don't take as long.

And that's one key reason why the PN will acquire more than 2 or even 4 JCFs. The JCF is an original design created by ASFAT and NRDI with the PN's direct input. It was a purpose-built frigate for the PN's needs, especially its long-term requirements. For example, it's scalable in that the design can be enlarged (e.g., AS3600), giving the PN a great platform to build on.

So, we know the PN will order at least 6 ships from secondary sources - not the best, but they have been dependable. However, it's also self-evident. If the PN wants to lower the cost of its ship acquisitions, then it'll leverage as much of the overhead of the first JCF pair as much as it can via subsequent ships. In other words, when you build more ships of the same type, costs drop and timelines shorten.

As for output, KSEW was expanded via a ship-lift-and-transfer system that connects 13 in-land production sites to a dock. The rail system can handle ships of up to 8,000 tons. KSEW is no longer bottlenecked by its docks regarding ship production.

So, the ability to churn out 6 JCFs by the mid-2030s is certainly there. Of course, there are a few other factors that will affect the timeline, e.g., funding, building experience of working with input vendors directly (for engines, steel, electronics, etc), trials and testing, and integration.

That said, ASFAT will be there as a sub-contractor throughout to help NRDI and KSEW with the process.

Makes sense. I think key here is, if KSEW could builds / launch multiple ships in parallel.

 

[Ak01]

Thanks & appreciated your understanding...




Indeed...

But can't understand the logic why PN didn't go for TAS with 054A/Ps?

the real reason was money. These ships were sold below PLAN cost price, heavily subsidised.

 

[FuturePAF]

As we both discussed & agreed earlier in other thread (Jinnah-class) for the its design, construction pattern, tonnage, weapon packages & timeline. Which are:

• Built in batches (2+2+4).
• Design has been based on AS3400(2) & AS3600(2+4) with different VLS layouts.
• Since the construction has been initiated already of first batch (construction pattern - in batches) hence 2040 timeline is far-off to reach to full strength; at most, it will happen by 2032–2033.

The big tonnage FFGs you are referring to will therefore be Jinnah-class, and Damen OPVs (1900t/2300t) will perform patrolling duties with F22Ps (IMO will not be phased out soon & will have extensive MLUs in due course of time) & forthcoming 20 FACs (Swift class).

PN "MSV" fleet most probably in between 20 - 24 vessels by 2032-35:

• 4 - 054A/Ps
• 4 - Milgem CORVs
• 4 - F22Ps (MLU ??)
• 4 - Damen OPVs (1900t/2300t)
• 6/8 - Jinnah-class FFGs

When the PN goes to upgrade the Type 054A/P later on, it should look to what was done to the Type 054AG.

Just sharing so when this is discussed in the future, this source is there.

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[ghazi52]

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[MIRauf]

By the Time first two Jinnah class get inducted into the service the F-22Ps likely will start to get transferred to MSA or mothballed / scrapped.

The F22P design is outdated, upgrades to latest tech hard to achieve as space is limited for VLS. I always wondered by PN's selection of F22P when Type-54 were being produced, cost ?

 

[CSAW]

 

[ghazi52]

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[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

 

[air marshal]

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[m52k85]

But can't understand the logic why PN didn't go for TAS with 054A/Ps?

What makes you believe TAS wasn't part of the package?