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Possible PN force composition in the next decade.

4 Type 54A frigates

4 Zulfiqar class frigates (possibly with the addition of CAMM ERS)

4-6 Jinnah class frigates

4 Babur class Corvettes

Possibly 2-6 of batch 2 yarmooks (PN has a requirement for a few more of those)

2 Yarmook class OPVs

4 Azmat class FACs

A few more Gunboats and Older missile boats not really relevant.

A total of 12-14 frigates, 6-10 heavy Corvettes, aligns neatly with the 20 major surface combatant goal set a decade back, they would have 300-350 VLS cells between them with 168-250 being for CAMM-ERs and 128 HQ-16s

Sub surface fleet:

8 Hangors

3 Agosta 90s

Possibly several 800 ton coastal submarines.

For a total of 12+ submarines.
 
Id still argue it is necessary in the fleet air defence role to protect the rest of the fleet
the problem with these large capital ships is that all it takes is 1 hit to put nearly $1b out of service.

You know for sure the adversary will focus its goals on knocking them out. The math just doesnt stack up.

Fleet defence is useless for the PN, because we all know the surface fleet will get knocked out, its why the PN is building effectively a 1:1+ ratio of major surface:subsurface combattants. I dont think any navy anywhere has these kinds of numbers.

Its all well and good considering fleet ad, BUT the Surface ships only role will be HADR/ some limited ASW and escorting merchant vessels and POTENTIALLy defending karachi closer to the coast. This can be done well by OPV2600's armed with CAMM, etc. You dont need a 052D. If an OPV2600 IS lost, its a cost that is a bit more bareable than a 052D. OTOH, that money going towards submarines would be hugely beneificial
 
the problem with these large capital ships is that all it takes is 1 hit to put nearly $1b out of service.

You know for sure the adversary will focus its goals on knocking them out. The math just doesnt stack up.

Fleet defence is useless for the PN, because we all know the surface fleet will get knocked out, its why the PN is building effectively a 1:1+ ratio of major surface:subsurface combattants. I dont think any navy anywhere has these kinds of numbers.

Its all well and good considering fleet ad, BUT the Surface ships only role will be HADR/ some limited ASW and escorting merchant vessels and POTENTIALLy defending karachi closer to the coast. This can be done well by OPV2600's armed with CAMM, etc. You dont need a 052D. If an OPV2600 IS lost, its a cost that is a bit more bareable than a 052D. OTOH, that money going towards submarines would be hugely beneificial
Are there more orders of OPV 2600 coming? Also TBF I doubt PN is going to let individual ships operate own their own, they will likely operate in flotillas of 4-5 ships within the "Submarine layer" Which in theory will prevent the IN from gathering a massive Armada and overwhelming any coastal or ship based defense.
 
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I don't know why we haven't produced more Azmat class FAC? they were pretty nice designed, stealthy and fast boats with carrying up to 2x2 Anti-ship missile launchers.
 
the problem with these large capital ships is that all it takes is 1 hit to put nearly $1b out of service.

You know for sure the adversary will focus its goals on knocking them out. The math just doesnt stack up.

Fleet defence is useless for the PN, because we all know the surface fleet will get knocked out, its why the PN is building effectively a 1:1+ ratio of major surface:subsurface combattants. I dont think any navy anywhere has these kinds of numbers.

Its all well and good considering fleet ad, BUT the Surface ships only role will be HADR/ some limited ASW and escorting merchant vessels and POTENTIALLy defending karachi closer to the coast. This can be done well by OPV2600's armed with CAMM, etc. You dont need a 052D. If an OPV2600 IS lost, its a cost that is a bit more bareable than a 052D. OTOH, that money going towards submarines would be hugely beneificial
But what is cost of these opvs or baburs in comparison? A type 052D can cost 800-900m i dont think any frigate option costs less than 400m. We are already buying a large number of these ships (4 opvs 4 baburs 4 tughrils 6+ JCF at that point buy a competent destroyer that may cost 2x but provide 3-4x more AAD capability. With standard chinese vls you can get something like hhq-9C which can protect our ships from ballistic attacks with the likes of LORA. Same vls also provides infinitely more strike options and is actively being improved upon by chinese rather than the smaller hhq-16 system on 054As basically becoming irrelevant. You cannot compare these two directly as they are incredibly different in role and capability. I just dont see your logic. Yes sub fleet is primary arm of PN but leaving surface fleet to just die is incredibly stupid.
 
I don't know why we haven't produced more Azmat class FAC? they were pretty nice designed, stealthy and fast boats with carrying up to 2x2 Anti-ship missile launchers.
They carry 3x2 harbah and 4x2 cm802 iirc. But yes i dont know why they arent being procured in higher numbers.
 
They carry 3x2 harbah and 4x2 cm802 iirc. But yes i dont know why they arent being procured in higher numbers.
Even better, but yeah PN should've order at least 4 more of them, might even convert some for mine-sweeping roles. I think we have 2-3 Baba Adam ke zamaane ki Minesweepers.
 
I don't know why we haven't produced more Azmat class FAC? they were pretty nice designed, stealthy and fast boats with carrying up to 2x2 Anti-ship missile launchers.
Azmats were bought before the "modern PN plan" When they were still on dekhen ge cope and massive Hopium of a few non stealth sub sonic missiles being able to get through IN destroyers, their use case is limited in the revised PN strategy, it's the reason PN isn't putting missiles on anything that floats like the Iranians even on ships that would be suitable missiles like the Sahiwal class Gunboats.

On the other hand The hulls are quite useful for roles other then Missile boats
 
Are there more orders of OPV 2600 coming? Also TBF I doubt PN is going to let individual ships operate own their own, they will likely operate in flotillas of 4-5 ships within the "Submarine layer" Which in theory will prevent the IN from gathering a massive Armada and overwhelming any coastal or ship based defense.
yea, i think another 2 oPVs will be contracted.

While you may have flotillas, the reality is again, the usefulness will be limited. We cant really sustain the attrition in the case of strikes. Lets say out of a fleet of 3 destroyers, 1 is always down for maintenance, 2 are serviceable, if one was to be lost, thats a HUGE degradation in capabilities. While the flotilla argument is fair, i cant help but think the funds would be better directed towards a far more survivable set of assets, like a solid a2/AD network via submarines.
 
But what is cost of these opvs or baburs in comparison? A type 052D can cost 800-900m i dont think any frigate option costs less than 400m. We are already buying a large number of these ships (4 opvs 4 baburs 4 tughrils 6+ JCF at that point buy a competent destroyer that may cost 2x but provide 3-4x more AAD capability. With standard chinese vls you can get something like hhq-9C which can protect our ships from ballistic attacks with the likes of LORA. Same vls also provides infinitely more strike options and is actively being improved upon by chinese rather than the smaller hhq-16 system on 054As basically becoming irrelevant. You cannot compare these two directly as they are incredibly different in role and capability. I just dont see your logic. Yes sub fleet is primary arm of PN but leaving surface fleet to just die is incredibly stupid.
the problem is you're looking at it from one very specific angle.

One, the OPV's in their current form have not cost much. They lack a bunch of the high end mission systems and vls needed to be able to make them fully mission capable. They're only good for patrol at the minute. As a result of this, the cost is marginal in terms of naval vessels. Perhaps sub 250 million for the 4. If i recall correctly, a single hull had a cost of about 50 million.

Tughrils were also dirt cheap as the purchase was subsidised by the PLA. I believe another 250 million or something per unit? I forgot really.

Baburs were not a purely capability purchase, but also an exercise in building capacity to actually develop ships at home. So the cost there is a bit skewed since the PN paid over the odds to buy the IP of the ships too, not just the hulls or ToT. It was an extremely comprehensive package.

In terms of Jinnah class, the reality is theres no guarantee it will go through. I suspect that even if it does, it will be a case of the PN reducing numbers and dripfeeding the orders to KSEW to keep them busy (something everyone overlooks), but also to sustain the surface fleet long term.

So we're talking 250 million, 1bn (worst case) and then another 1.5bn for the Ada class program.

We're at 2.75bn. Thats for 12 hulls, including extensive modifications and IP rights for others.

If we're talking a cost of 900m per unit, as you can see there, the math just doesnt add up.

You would be swapping 12 hulls for... 3! With that, while you may get tons of AD capability, you lose the ability to escort multiple ships, while also conducting HADR or SAR ops, or conducting ASW, or all of the other dozens of missions navies have to conduct.

You're looking at this from a very limited scope of air defence. The navy's purpose is not to defend the skies, its to defend the seas, but also to conduct the other plethora of ops that are conducted at sea. It just doesnt work.

We DONT need wide area AAW capabilities. We have no CSG's to protect, nor do we have vast islands. Our ships will need to defend themselves, and at best case scenario, one or two vessels being escorted at once. While the reality is, against vast swarm attacks these ships would struggle, that is factored into the calculus. Who knows, maybe you'll have 2/3 ships sailing together with overlapping coverage for self defence.

You also need to remember, the cost of hulls is one thing, but whos going to equip those cells? Even 64 cells, at 1 million a missile on average means to equip one ship, you're spending the equivalent of a fully capable OPV2600 on armament. This works for wealthy navies, but the PN is having to skip installing radars on some ships at the moment because the funds dont exist.

The PN NEEDS large numbers of surface ships for its OTHER missions. You have arabian sea patrols, CTF151, gulf patrols, asw etc etc. If you cull ship numbers in exchange for a handful of higher end ships, you also need to start culling your missions, but also, you need to give up your capabilities in other areas to gain in one area(AAW). That loss, is far greater because the Navy's mission set is far greater than the one you place specific emphasis on.

And yes, ships are sent to die, but attrition is once again a part of every war plan. You're better off losing 30% of your fleet of 12 or 20 ships than you are losing 30% of your fleet of 3 or 6. Those losses are far harder to bare than the former. We've also not even talked about the maintenance, sustainment and lifecycle costs that come with these things. This is something very commonly overlooked.

At the end of the day, your perspective is just a very narrow one.
 
I don't know why we haven't produced more Azmat class FAC? they were pretty nice designed, stealthy and fast boats with carrying up to 2x2 Anti-ship missile launchers.
i wonder whether the ships were just subpar.

PN has a FAC requirement still, but they want something better. @puttputt will know.

Also, just a side note, alot of Chinese ships of similar era were deemed to be incredibly dangerous by export customers like thailand. When the RTN purchased their Naresuan class Frigates, they had to spend a ton of time remedying the construction because it was deemed to be extremely sub par and they concluded that any strike on the ship would lead to a very quick loss. Plus, the fire suppression systems were also deemed dangerous.
 
Does anyone know what the Hawkeye 2000 system upgrade we did to our P-3Cs included? Afaict its a battlemanagent, coms, iff and ELINT system for E-2C hawkeye. But its sometimes listed as a AEWACS upgrade for p3 fleet. Can anyone confirm?
nothing, it didnt happen. The original plan was to fit the E2C mission systems, incl radar to our P3s
 
i wonder whether the ships were just subpar.

PN has a FAC requirement still, but they want something better. @puttputt will know.

Also, just a side note, alot of Chinese ships of similar era were deemed to be incredibly dangerous by export customers like thailand. When the RTN purchased their Naresuan class Frigates, they had to spend a ton of time remedying the construction because it was deemed to be extremely sub par and they concluded that any strike on the ship would lead to a very quick loss. Plus, the fire suppression systems were also deemed dangerous.
i read some years back that the gyroscopes on zulfiqar class were of very poor quality and what not
 
the problem is you're looking at it from one very specific angle.

One, the OPV's in their current form have not cost much. They lack a bunch of the high end mission systems and vls needed to be able to make them fully mission capable. They're only good for patrol at the minute. As a result of this, the cost is marginal in terms of naval vessels. Perhaps sub 250 million for the 4. If i recall correctly, a single hull had a cost of about 50 million.

Tughrils were also dirt cheap as the purchase was subsidised by the PLA. I believe another 250 million or something per unit? I forgot really.

Baburs were not a purely capability purchase, but also an exercise in building capacity to actually develop ships at home. So the cost there is a bit skewed since the PN paid over the odds to buy the IP of the ships too, not just the hulls or ToT. It was an extremely comprehensive package.

In terms of Jinnah class, the reality is theres no guarantee it will go through. I suspect that even if it does, it will be a case of the PN reducing numbers and dripfeeding the orders to KSEW to keep them busy (something everyone overlooks), but also to sustain the surface fleet long term.

So we're talking 250 million, 1bn (worst case) and then another 1.5bn for the Ada class program.

We're at 2.75bn. Thats for 12 hulls, including extensive modifications and IP rights for others.

If we're talking a cost of 900m per unit, as you can see there, the math just doesnt add up.

You would be swapping 12 hulls for... 3! With that, while you may get tons of AD capability, you lose the ability to escort multiple ships, while also conducting HADR or SAR ops, or conducting ASW, or all of the other dozens of missions navies have to conduct.

You're looking at this from a very limited scope of air defence. The navy's purpose is not to defend the skies, its to defend the seas, but also to conduct the other plethora of ops that are conducted at sea. It just doesnt work.

We DONT need wide area AAW capabilities. We have no CSG's to protect, nor do we have vast islands. Our ships will need to defend themselves, and at best case scenario, one or two vessels being escorted at once. While the reality is, against vast swarm attacks these ships would struggle, that is factored into the calculus. Who knows, maybe you'll have 2/3 ships sailing together with overlapping coverage for self defence.

You also need to remember, the cost of hulls is one thing, but whos going to equip those cells? Even 64 cells, at 1 million a missile on average means to equip one ship, you're spending the equivalent of a fully capable OPV2600 on armament. This works for wealthy navies, but the PN is having to skip installing radars on some ships at the moment because the funds dont exist.

The PN NEEDS large numbers of surface ships for its OTHER missions. You have arabian sea patrols, CTF151, gulf patrols, asw etc etc. If you cull ship numbers in exchange for a handful of higher end ships, you also need to start culling your missions, but also, you need to give up your capabilities in other areas to gain in one area(AAW). That loss, is far greater because the Navy's mission set is far greater than the one you place specific emphasis on.

And yes, ships are sent to die, but attrition is once again a part of every war plan. You're better off losing 30% of your fleet of 12 or 20 ships than you are losing 30% of your fleet of 3 or 6. Those losses are far harder to bare than the former. We've also not even talked about the maintenance, sustainment and lifecycle costs that come with these things. This is something very commonly overlooked.

At the end of the day, your perspective is just a very narrow one.
brother i am not arguing pakistan should go all in on destroyers for example as that is very stupid. my previous post explained the need for simply getting better AD for our currently planned ships. my argugement was mostly made on assumption of higher per hull costs but if the figures you cite are true then my main problem is PN is buying a ton of hulls without actually making current fleet viable. i dont want PN to buy 1-2 052Ds becuase imo more pressing needs are f22p refit and large numbers of FACs, we also dont need a ridiculous number of AD to protect against Brahmos as its shown itself to be relatively easy to jam but getting decent AD on f22ps better missiles for hhq-16 and more CAMM for JCF and babur derivitives would greatly help. destroyers are not in any way realistic for PN given current situation and requirements. otoh i just dont see need to get into talks for s800s when surface fleet is so incomplete
 
nothing, it didnt happen. The original plan was to fit the E2C mission systems, incl radar to our P3s
Did navy ever come up with alternative AWACs plan? They really could use saabs or maybe eryie on sea sultan platform
 

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