PL-15E and HQ-16FE improvements needed?

[MH.Yang]

Your right that better performance in tangible metrics and cost will have to be meet to justify Such an expenditure. The J-10 at $40 million is a great platform.

Therefor it would probably be best for the PAF to make the “PFX” not a platform but a program to reduce the effective detectability of its platforms. A “Have glass” style of program to reduce the signature of JF-17s and J-10s would probably be best.

The PFX money could also be well spend building a J-10 rebuild factory and if not manufacturing parts, being very capable of maintaining them, as part of a strategy to buy dozens more J-10s.

Considering the financial and political cost of maintaining and operating, not to mention potentially upgrading the F-16s, the PAF may have to look at a strategy where it may have quietly phasing out the F-16 from frontline service, alongside the retirement of the F-7PGs and Mirages. In a 20 squadron fleet, with 2 squadrons of J-35As, and 10 squadrons of JF-17s, the PAF could start with a goal of 4 squadrons of J-10s (3 more than the current fleet) and eventually progress to 6-8 squadrons; go from 72 fighters and move up to 108-144. At those numbers and at $40 million an airframe, that would be $720 million per squadron and probably $1 billion all in if you count support and munitions.

Money intended for the PFX program could, for example, be used to develop jammer pods for an Electronic attack variant of the J-35 for protection over Pakistan and any units operating beyond the borders of Pakistan.

I would also hope the J-10s could get an improved engine so at least one oversized squadron (24 aircraft) could be an electronic attack variant, and able to carry a “PL-17E” in the HARM role.

https://www.key.aero/article/have-glass-making-f-16-less-observable

Improving the J10C to give it the ability to use the PL-17 is really a good way to get around Russia. But the PLAAF has moved from strategic defense to strategic offense, and due to dissatisfaction with the J10C's range and payload, the PLAAF has stopped continuing to order the J10C, much less investing resources in upgrading it.

Future missiles are bound to get longer and heavier. the PAF will eventually need heavy fighters.

 

[Rational Philosopher]

It is high time that the situation in South Asia cools down rather than continuing to fuel hostility between the two sides. Continuing tensions are not in the global interest, especially not in Pakistan's. India is indeed much more powerful than Pakistan. Let India earn its decency and then reap the real benefits in the ensuing water negotiations.

Waiting patiently and letting India's boasts and rumors continue to fester, and when it reaches its peak, China will then publish the evidence bit by bit, which will maximize humiliation and undermine the credibility of its adversary. Just as China did in the Galwan River case.

The air battle took place right near China's Western Military Region Command, and China must have intercepted all electronic signals and possessed sufficient evidence. The West understands this which is why they admit Rafale was shot down and are not willing to go along with India's lies. So we don't have to rush at all, let the Indians keep digging the hole and see who gets buried in it in the end.

We too hope for peace but unfortunately India wants to behave as an expansionist hegemon in South Asia whereby bullying all its smaller neighbours, and what's worse is that they are gripped by a radical genocidal sense of fascism in their echo-chamber which presents a very real and tangible threat proven now by their attacks on our civilian infrastructure and celebrating the deaths of children. Peace is realistically hard to achieve under such a mindset.

 

[MH.Yang]

We too hope for peace but unfortunately India wants to behave as an expansionist hegemon in South Asia whereby bullying all its smaller neighbours, and what's worse is that they are gripped by a radical genocidal sense of fascism in their echo-chamber which presents a very real and tangible threat proven now by their attacks on our civilian infrastructure and celebrating the deaths of children. Peace is realistically hard to achieve under such a mindset.

May the people of Pakistan have lights at night, umbrellas when it rains, and good people to keep them company.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

By 2035, China will have already conducted the flight test for the CAC/SAC 7th gen aircrafts.

China would probably introduce the 6th gen J-50 to Pakistan as the upgrade to the J-35.

Will India acquire the 5th gen aircraft by that time?

If not, it will be a long term peace between Pakistan and India.

 

[FuturePAF]

Improving the J10C to give it the ability to use the PL-17 is really a good way to get around Russia. But the PLAAF has moved from strategic defense to strategic offense, and due to dissatisfaction with the J10C's range and payload, the PLAAF has stopped continuing to order the J10C, much less investing resources in upgrading it.

Future missiles are bound to get longer and heavier. the PAF will eventually need heavy fighters.

The PAF doesn’t have the Range requirement, but to compensate for the higher weights, the PAF will need to either buy more J-35A (with a higher total thrust than the J-10 could possibly have) or improve the J-10 to the limit of the design, as was done with the JF-17.

The Turks studied a single engine canard delta under their T-FX program. The current J-10C has a max takeoff weight of a little over 42,000 lb, and the Turks have a lower RCS design with a max takeoff weight of 50,000 lb. This would require an at least 20% more powerful engine; aka a WS-15 export version.

Considering the PAF’s need for a large number of modern fighters, and China dwindling interest in the jet, and ample R&D work already down by both China and Turkey, switch the Kamra plant over to J-10 production and further development of the jets may make sense.

 

[airhead]

How many pl15s were fired on May 7 to get 6 kills?

 

[MH.Yang]

The PAF doesn’t have the Range requirement, but to compensate for the higher weights, the PAF will need to either buy more J-35A (with a higher total thrust than the J-10 could possibly have) or improve the J-10 to the limit of the design, as was done with the JF-17.

The Turks studied a single engine canard delta under their T-FX program. The current J-10C has a max takeoff weight of a little over 42,000 lb, and the Turks have a lower RCS design with a max takeoff weight of 50,000 lb. This would require an at least 20% more powerful engine; aka a WS-15 export version.

Considering the PAF’s need for a large number of modern fighters, and China dwindling interest in the jet, and ample R&D work already down by both China and Turkey, switch the Kamra plant over to J-10 production and further development of the jets may make sense.

View attachment 121483

I think the Chinese government will even agree to Pakistan buying the entire J10C production line outright. CAC has already transferred the J10C production line to GAI, which mainly produces agricultural machinery, because of the loss of the PLAAF order. Only is Pakistan really capable of upgrading the J10C on its own?

And although it is advertised that J10C is MRCA, we all actually know that it is Air superiority fighter. the difference in commercial value between this aircraft and MRCA is like the difference between EF-2000 and Rafale, and I am afraid that Pakistan will have a hard time to find any other customer than PAF. I really don't think acquiring the J10C production line is a good idea.

 

[iblini]

Reflecting on potential shortcomings can help improve it, so it is more able to deal with emerging threats; aircraft that know it’s coming and stealth aircraft.

As in the game of Go, we need to move to be better placed anticipating their moves.

Don't worry man, there are different variants, PAF can always and will ask for customization according to their need.

 

[FuturePAF]

I think the Chinese government will even agree to Pakistan buying the entire J10C production line outright. CAC has already transferred the J10C production line to GAI, which mainly produces agricultural machinery, because of the loss of the PLAAF order. Only is Pakistan really capable of upgrading the J10C on its own?

And although it is advertised that J10C is MRCA, we all actually know that it is Air superiority fighter. the difference in commercial value between this aircraft and MRCA is like the difference between EF-2000 and Rafale, and I am afraid that Pakistan will have a hard time to find any other customer than PAF. I really don't think acquiring the J10C production line is a good idea.

Your most likely right that it would make financial sense, but on the other hand if the PLAAF doesn’t really see a future for the design, and the PAF likes to keep its jets for 40-50 years, having the production facilities in Pakistan will lower life cycle costs.

Granted, a plan should be made to improve the design, lower effective signatures (RF/IR/electronic, etc.) through materials as well as some limited shaping, possibly two canted tails. But mostly around a more powerful engine and better avionics, to allow heavier and/or longer range muntions and more power consuming systems such as jamming pods or both.

Some shaping, defiantly not the full J-20 shift should be studied.

Frontal RCS/IR signature, as well as CFTs are probably most important IMHO. The most modern missile approach warning equipment, and the most secure comms/datalinks, of course.

 

[iblini]

Your most likely right that it would make financial sense, but on the other hand if the PLAAF doesn’t really see a future for the design, and the PAF likes to keep its jets for 40-50 years, having the production facilities in Pakistan will lower life cycle costs.

Granted, a plan should be made to improve the design, lower effective signatures (RF/IR/electronic, etc.) through materials as well as some limited shaping, possibly two canted tails. But mostly around a more powerful engine and better avionics, to allow heavier and/or longer range muntions and more power consuming systems such as jamming pods or both.

Some shaping, defiantly not the full J-20 shift should be studied.

Frontal RCS/IR signature, as well as CFTs are probably most important IMHO. The most modern missile approach warning equipment, and the most secure comms/datalinks, of course.
View attachment 121490

bro, there was this rumor of J10D semi stealth thing way back and confirmed by reputable people online, 10 years ago if I recall correctly, but nothing substantial came out eventually, that means PLAAF doesn't like the concept of semi stealth, not worth it.

 

[MH.Yang]

Your most likely right that it would make financial sense, but on the other hand if the PLAAF doesn’t really see a future for the design, and the PAF likes to keep its jets for 40-50 years, having the production facilities in Pakistan will lower life cycle costs.

Granted, a plan should be made to improve the design, lower effective signatures (RF/IR/electronic, etc.) through materials as well as some limited shaping, possibly two canted tails. But mostly around a more powerful engine and better avionics, to allow heavier and/or longer range muntions and more power consuming systems such as jamming pods or both.

Some shaping, defiantly not the full J-20 shift should be studied.

Frontal RCS/IR signature, as well as CFTs are probably most important IMHO. The most modern missile approach warning equipment, and the most secure comms/datalinks, of course.
View attachment 121490

As per your idea, that would be a serious challenge for Pakistan's aviation industry. It is no less than designing and building a 4.5G fighter alone.
Of course, if the J10C gets a new life in Pakistan, that's what we Chinese military fans would like to see and we wish this veteran a good future.

 

[MH.Yang]

bro, there was this rumor of J10D semi stealth thing way back and confirmed by reputable people online, 10 years ago if I recall correctly, but nothing substantial came out eventually, that means PLAAF doesn't like the concept of semi stealth, not worth it.

Yes. I remember Song once said contemptuously on a TV show that flattening an airplane and making a semi-stealth plane to pass it off as a 5G fighter was something only the Russians would do. Of course, his words were meant to mock the Su-57, but they also show that semi-stealth fighters are not favored in China.

 

[Developereo]

Pakistan's aviation industry

Pakistan does not have an aviation industry. Pakistan would most likely ask Turkey for help but I don't know if Turkish aviation has been battle tested and proven except for their drones.

 

[PakShaheen_79]

we need a counter of Brahmos in shortest possible time. Which Chinese supersonic cruise missile can fit in this role. India saved the day with Brahmos and it proved a complete surprise for Pakistani ADS. A missile in category of YJ-12/C-302 but with full range in land attack mode.

 

[Michael]

Pl 15 does have a second thruster which fires up near the target, for chasing a maneuvering plane.

Man, the PL-15 doesn't have a second thruster, it only has one solid-fuel rocket thruster.
The difference is that a general solid-fuel rocket thruster can only work once, without interruption in the middle, and can't be ignited again.
The PL-15 is a dual-pulse solid-fuel rocket thruster. Its fuel rod is divided into two parts. After the first section of fuel is finished, the engine will stop working for a period of time, and then re-ignite the second section of fuel. This is the basic working principle of the dual-pulse engine.
Its engine is not confidential, and the technology is completely public. Its core secret is how to ignite the two sections of fuel rods twice without affecting each other.

The PFX need not be a twin engine behemoth, but a successor to the and-17 and J-10. A backbone single engine fighter, with the WS-10B engine (or perhaps even a WS-15 export approved version eventually) but with shaping that improved its chances at survival.

The J-10 has a nickname in China called "棍子机(stick fighter)". ------ We put wings on an engine and let the pilot ride on the engine, and that's the J-10.

So, your suggestion about PFX is actually another J-10 fighter. So, what is the point of Pakistan studying this?

In the Chinese fighter series:

• Single medium thrust engine fighter = JF-17
• Single high thrust engine fighter = J-10
• Two medium thrust engines fighter = J-35
• Two high thrust engines fighter = J-20

Medium-thrust turbofan engines: WS-21 (WS-13 series), WS-19. Russia Series: RD-33 series
High-thrust turbofan engines: WS-10, WS-15. Russia Series: AL-31 series

If the JF-17 continues to be developed under the name of "JF-17 series" in the future, such as JF-17 PFX, JF-17 Alpha... then its engine will either continue to use the RD-93MA engine or be replaced with the WS-21/WS-19 engine.
If it switches to a high-thrust engine, then it will be completely redesigned. It can no longer continue to be called the "JF-17 series".

we need a counter of Brahmos in shortest possible time. Which Chinese supersonic cruise missile can fit in this role. India saved the day with Brahmos and it proved a complete surprise for Pakistani ADS. A missile in category of YJ-12/C-302 but with full range in land attack mode.

Uh. As for BrahMos, the Chinese really didn't care about it. Its range is too short (150KM for low trajectory, 350KM for high trajectory). Even its improved version is only 500KM.
Within this range, the PLA generally uses long-range rocket launchers to carry out large-scale coverage strikes without the need for expensive missiles.

As for the defense system.
It has a lot of problems in itself, the success rate of launch is very low, and the actual hit accuracy is even lower.
Pakistan can introduce high-altitude long-endurance UAV for long-term early warning. The ballistic computer in the background accurately calculates the missile trajectory and analyzes the missiles that need to be intercepted. Most BrahMos can be completely ignored. This real-time early warning can make various preparations in advance.
Pakistan can introduce China's 625E defense system for flexible and mobile deployment. Although this defense weapon has a short interception distance, it has a high interception success rate and extremely low cost. It has a very flexible and mobile deployment capability.
Better defense systems can also be purchased appropriately. However, these defense systems are too expensive, and the cost of intercepting missiles is also high. Using them to intercept BrahMos may result in a serious loss. Pakistan only needs to deploy a small number of them in key areas.