POST WAR assessment of recent conflict.

[Cipher212]

All good points and I think underground is the way to go, with AD assets multiplied many fold.

Underground will not be cheap to build, but then a good thing about our military is that they are very experienced with construction projects.......

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Army has already done 9/10 on Chinese SAM , expand network

Perhaps more Turkish SAM to Supplement Chinese (Low-Med-High) Systems

Few more Turkish , Akinc (Drones ) , can Air to Air Pakistani SAM be placed on these ? Hypothetical question . Can K-8 have small air to air missiles ? for Hunting the smaller drones ?

May be CWIS like system for Land or Mobile Truck

 

[Rational Philosopher]

We shouldn't create an echo-chamber like Indians. We had an amazing counter attack on day 1 and have almost confirmed aerial kills.

It's clear India felt deeply scarred by that hence the direct escalation to overwhelming PAF infrastructure.

— We need an economical and integrated way to protect our infrastructure — easier said than done given geographic constraints.

— We also need ways to reliably and smoothly target major Indian AF sites deep into India. Tactical maneuverable warheads. For the past few years I had been saying we need this, not only strategic missiles.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Veering away from land forces.
I sincerely hope the Navy hurries the rest of the Baburs, Jinnah class project and submarines.
We only had 5 modern vessels on the water.

Well there is always option to buy 2nd Hand Frigates in China and equip them with Local Missiles use for 10 years [Short Term Need]

Jinnah Class I think will take 5-7 years no sooner May be 10 years

Once all Jinnah Class ships induct , you can retire the short term lease ships

I think I suggested few times 3-4 years ago few times to hold 5-6
2nd hand ships from China to Supplement fleet , on Lease. China had I think 6-8 Frigates parked on their port not being used, constructed in 2000's - 90 meter long decent ships, which also can hold helicopters. These may are may be similar standard as our OHP ships, which Navy uses

On other hand , many people did suggest Type054
(Brand new is better option) of course you have wait for construction
of course the Type054 Caliber Ship is high end world class Frigate
VLS + world class radar etc

 

[Waz]

Underground will not be cheap to build, but then a good thing about our military is that they are very experienced with construction projects.......

Of course not but for survivability it's a must.

 

[Waz]

Army has already done 9/10 on Chinese SAM , expand network

Perhaps more Turkish SAM to Supplement Chinese (Low-Med-High) Systems

Few more Turkish , Akinc (Drones ) , can Air to Air Pakistani SAM be placed on these ? Hypothetical question

May be CWIS like system for Land

More purchases of Chinese long range systems and working with the Turks on their SAM is the way forward.

 

[Waz]

Well there is always option to buy 2nd Hand Frigates in China and equip them with Local Missiles use for 10 years

Jinnah Class I think will take 5-7 years no sooner

I think I suggested few times 3-4 years ago few times to hold 5-6
2nd hand ships from China to Supplement fleet , on Lease

Yes just needs to be sped up. The IN just moved towards a forward position but remained.

 

[mulj]

It is important to keep it real, i can mention dozen of upgrades but budget constrain is crucial as always, so i would narrow proposed upgrade options for time period of three years ahead with lets say 2 billions usd per year dedicated for that particular purpose.
In proposing if possible it would be nice to separate what can be produced locally and what has to be imported.

 

[Michael]

First question I want to start with why did we not see stocks of cruise missiles used?

View attachment 119609

On the subject. There is an analytical article on the Chinese web that may be relevant. I will paraphrase the general meaning of this article.

In the beginning, China actually had indigenous advanced air defense systems. However, the area we need to defend is so large that there is a severe shortage of new domestic air defense systems being produced. So, China purchased six S-400 air defense systems from Russia for a total of $3 billion. (The total price tag for India's purchase of five S-400 air defense systems is $6 billion.)​

​

When the PLA received the S-400 air defense systems and tested them, they found that their true capabilities were far from what Russia claimed. In particular, the radar's ability to discriminate was very poor. It is much worse than China's own air defense systems.​

At that time, PLA had considered upgrading and modifying these S-400 air defense systems on its own using Chinese parts. However, after careful accounting, it was found that the cost was too high and there was no value in upgrading.​

Therefore, PLA transferred these S-400 air defense systems to secondary areas to perform operational readiness air defense tasks, while the operational readiness air defense tasks in China's main areas were undertaken by China's own air defense systems.------The original plan was to use these S-400s for air defense missions in key regions.​

Both China and India have S-300/400 air defense systems. So PLA is fully aware of the real capability of these air defense systems and not the paper strength claimed by Russia/India. So, PLA is fully aware of how to circumvent these air defense systems.
So, due to the presence of Chinese military advisors, Pakistan can choose its attack methods and attack weapons very accurately.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

1) Nuclear deterrence is no longer valid

2) The Air defence was in-effective. They were able to strike every major base, every major Pakistani city which was surprising considering Chinese AD systems that were in place

Nuclear Deterrence will always be valid

Both sides in theory had similar abilities

As a defensive weapon SAMs do offer only line of defense

 

[SolarWarden]

My post war asses is PAF does more with a lot less. (duh I know)

There's going to be a lot of ifs when it comes to PAF... What if Pakistan's F-16 fleet were all block 52s (block 52's are not considered as advanced when compared to Rafail) how much worse would IAF performed? No doubt Pakistan has the better pilots by far and are the jewel of Pakistan's military I just hope the deal with Orange man is to upgrade PAF F-16 fleet to V standard.

Pakistani fighter pilots flying modern 4th gen fighters.... fuhgeddaboudit!

 

[SolarWarden]

1) Nuclear deterrence is no longer valid

2) The Air defence was in-effective. They were able to strike every major base, every major Pakistani city which was surprising considering Chinese AD systems that were in place

The reason for ceasefire is because of nukes. Both nations started to "notice" cht was getting out of control and heading towards a much worse escalation.

 

[Mr X]

Dear all,

I have seen threads coming up about air defence etc. What we need is a dedicated thread. Topics I think need to be touched up on are stocks of standoff missiles, air defence, the hurrying of Pakistani navy surface vessels etc.
I'll merge another thread later on regarding air defence.

Apologies no Indian posters please.

I have come to conclude a few facts

1) As Najam Sethi mentioned last night. The war between Pakistan and India is no longer between the two nations. It will always be India vs Pakistan and China. For example the cyber attack and the the blackout of grid stations came from China and not Pakistan. So it was actively involved at some capacity and may have been involved deeply if the matter escalated

2) Pakistan showed that it has the ability to penetrate deep inside India despite their very good Air Defense system of S-400

3) Pakistan demonstrated that PAF is technologically superior to IAF and the myth of Superior IAF is busted twice, once in 2019 and now in 2025.

4) Pakistan’s Air defence was surprisingly very potent but more investment is needed to minimise the damage

5) The reputation of J-10C have increased by 100 times. It means everyone will fear the J-35 and Pakistan will likely be the first buyer in the near future.

 

[Waz]

On the subject. There is an analytical article on the Chinese web that may be relevant. I will paraphrase the general meaning of this article.

In the beginning, China actually had indigenous advanced air defense systems. However, the area we need to defend is so large that there is a severe shortage of new domestic air defense systems being produced. So, China purchased six S-400 air defense systems from Russia for a total of $3 billion. (The total price tag for India's purchase of five S-400 air defense systems is $6 billion.)​

​

When the PLA received the S-400 air defense systems and tested them, they found that their true capabilities were far from what Russia claimed. In particular, the radar's ability to discriminate was very poor. It is much worse than China's own air defense systems.​

At that time, PLA had considered upgrading and modifying these S-400 air defense systems on its own using Chinese parts. However, after careful accounting, it was found that the cost was too high and there was no value in upgrading.​

Therefore, PLA transferred these S-400 air defense systems to secondary areas to perform operational readiness air defense tasks, while the operational readiness air defense tasks in China's main areas were undertaken by China's own air defense systems.------The original plan was to use these S-400s for air defense missions in key regions.​

Both China and India have S-300/400 air defense systems. So PLA is fully aware of the real capability of these air defense systems and not the paper strength claimed by Russia/India. So, PLA is fully aware of how to circumvent these air defense systems.
So, due to the presence of Chinese military advisors, Pakistan can choose its attack methods and attack weapons very accurately.

Pakistan's munitions go through their air defences. But yes 100% agreed.

 

[Waz]

My post war asses is PAF does more with a lot less. (duh I know)

There's going to be a lot of ifs when it comes to PAF... What if Pakistan's F-16 fleet were all block 52s (block 52's are not considered as advanced when compared to Rafail) how much worse would IAF performed? No doubt Pakistan has the better pilots by far and are the jewel of Pakistan's military I just hope the deal with Orange man is to upgrade PAF F-16 fleet to V standard.

Pakistani fighter pilots flying modern 4th gen fighters.... fuhgeddaboudit!

The F-16 upgrade would be awesome, but I just feel India would kick up a huge fuss.