POST WAR assessment of recent conflict.

[Lulldapull]

The message from top to HOLD meant no more attacks but could never mean no more defense.

Our AD was probably not as effective as Indian AD. S-400 is indeed considered one of the best systems in the world so it wouldn't really be a surprise that it did its job rather effectively.

The most important thing to note here is that high supersonic missiles like Brahmos (and possibly CM-400AKG) were rather effective whereas effectiveness of Fatah rockets is questionable unless satellite imagery is made availale of meaningful damage to Indian Military Targets.

Questionable? AL-Turkiya and Chinese toys?

Oh bhai time to look for better weapon suppliers no?

We can't make em ourselves anyway.

Everybody's found out no?.........

 

[hydrabadi_arab]

Nothing at Kamra
If you mean Bholari - Ive already explained what happened.

India fired few missiles at Kamra airbase, both were intercepted as per my relative.

And I found this tweet and others also talking about attack on Kamra.

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[PakistanLVR]

While I absolutely understand your sentiments, I wanted to particularly respond to your opinion that Pakistan should have targetted Indian Civilians and Hindu places of worship. In which Islam is either allowed?

And what would be the difference between us and them?? Under no circumstances shoud Indian civilians be harmed, even in all out wars. Only combatants should be targetted.

I'll be real with you, you guys can worry about following the Quranic ayats about warfare, but some of us will have to answer for our transgressions including me, and my response will I was protecting our Muslims from a vicious pagan enemy. You can give the Islamic excuse to the families of the poor that were murdered at night and our mosques desecrated that we they are shaheeds or whatever story GHQ would like, but I'd choose to put the enemy under similar stress. This is the only way language the enemy will learn.

 

[Fatman17]

• 
  
  Monday, June 9, 2025​
  
  

  Eurasia Review​

  A Journal of Analysis and News​

​

Shattering A Myth: How Pakistan’s Warfighting Doctrine Prevailed Over India’s ‘Asian Tiger’ Ambitions? – OpEd​

June 9, 2025 0 Comments
By Altaf Moti
The early summer of 2025 will be etched in military history as a period when the strategic landscape of South Asia underwent a seismic shift. A brief but intensely violent four-day conflict, erupting in May 2025, saw Pakistan decisively counter a premeditated act of aggression by India.
This war, which India initiated with the apparent belief that Pakistan was militarily vulnerable, concluded with a stunning reversal of fortunes. Pakistan’s robust and technologically superior retaliatory strikes, particularly its dominance in the aerial domain and effective ground responses, not only shattered India’s military arrogance but also firmly established Pakistan among nations boasting premier military capabilities, commanding newfound respect from the global community.

India’s Ill-Fated Gamble: Underestimating a Resilient Pakistan​

For some time leading up to the May 2025 conflict, a narrative of an indomitable “Asian Tiger” was aggressively promoted by India. This self-congratulatory image, fueled by significant defence acquisitions and nationalistic rhetoric, seemingly led New Delhi’s strategic planners to a critical miscalculation: they perceived Pakistan as a state that could be dominated or coerced through limited military adventurism. The tragic terrorist incident in Pahalgam in late April 2025 was cynically seized upon by India as a pretext to launch its pre-planned offensive, “Operation Sindoor,” in early May, under the guise of targeting militant infrastructure.
India’s leadership, blinded by hubris, appeared to believe that a swift, punitive strike would go largely unanswered or would be met with a tepid response. They fatally underestimated Pakistan’s national resolve, the sophisticated advancements in its defence technology, the operational readiness of its armed forces, and its unwavering commitment to respond decisively to any violation of its sovereignty.

Pakistan’s Swift Retort: A Symphony of Modern Warfare Surprises the World​

Contrary to Indian expectations, Pakistan’s response to the aggression was neither delayed nor weak. It was, in fact, a meticulously coordinated showcase of modern military capabilities that took India and international observers by complete surprise. Within hours of Indian incursions, Pakistan launched its retaliatory strikes, targeting key Indian military assets and forward positions with precision and overwhelming effect.
The Pakistan Air Force (PAF), spearheading the counter-attack, demonstrated exceptional skill and technological superiority. Utilising a combination of its advanced fighter platforms, including the continually upgraded JF-17 Thunders and other sophisticated assets, augmented by a formidable integrated air defence network, the PAF effectively blunted Indian aerial advances and took the fight deep into enemy territory. Simultaneously, Pakistan’s army responded with calibrated but punishing ground assaults on Indian military bases and troop concentrations along the Line of Control and the working boundary. The use of cutting-edge surveillance drones, electronic warfare systems, and long-range artillery by Pakistan during these engagements highlighted a military that was not just prepared but was also a step ahead in the tactical application of modern combat technology. The world watched as the aggressor quickly became the defender, struggling to cope with the intensity and sophistication of Pakistan’s multi-pronged riposte.

The Battle for Air Superiority: Six Indian High-Tech Aircraft Downed, Including Three Rafales​

The defining feature of the May 2025 conflict was the decisive aerial victory achieved by the Pakistan Air Force. In a series of intense dogfights and surface-to-air engagements over four days, the PAF inflicted crippling losses on the Indian Air Force (IAF). The most significant blow to India’s pride and air power was the confirmed downing of six of its frontline, high-technology aircraft.
Among these were three of India’s much-vaunted French-made Rafale fighter jets, aircraft that New Delhi had showcased as a game-changer in the region. The loss of these advanced platforms, alongside other sophisticated IAF jets, in such a short span was a catastrophic blow to India’s military credibility. Reports emerging during and after the conflict, including from international military analysts and even reluctant acknowledgements from some neutral observers, pieced together the stark reality of the IAF’s disastrous performance. Pakistani pilots, flying indigenous and jointly developed aircraft, outmaneuvered and outfought their Indian counterparts, exposing critical weaknesses in IAF training, operational doctrine, and technological integration despite the high-value assets at their disposal. The destruction of these six aircraft, including the prized Rafales, completely deflated India’s balloon of perceived air dominance and sent shockwaves through its defence establishment.

Ground Offensive Thwarted: Pakistani Boots Silence Indian Guns​

While the PAF was achieving supremacy in the skies, the Pakistan Army was equally resolute on the ground. Indian attempts to make strategic inroads or create panic through cross-border shelling and commando raids were met with fierce and effective resistance. Pakistani ground forces not only defended their territory with valor but also launched powerful counter-offensives against several Indian military bases and forward operating locations.
These targeted attacks on Indian ground installations resulted in significant damage to their infrastructure, logistics, and morale. Reports indicated considerable Indian casualties and the destruction of military hardware. The tactical ingenuity and bravery of Pakistani soldiers ensured that India’s ground offensive ambitions were comprehensively quashed. The coordinated action between Pakistan’s air and land forces demonstrated a level of synergy that proved overwhelming for the Indian military, further contributing to the rapid unravelling of India’s war plans.

The Shattering of Arrogance: India Learns a Bitter Lesson​

The May 2025 war served as a brutal reality check for India. The image of an invincible “Asian Tiger,” so carefully cultivated, lay in tatters, exposed as a facade by Pakistan’s superior military performance. The conflict revealed that high-tech acquisitions alone do not guarantee victory; it is the blend of technology with superior training, strategy, national courage, and the will to fight that proves decisive.
India’s arrogance, built on a foundation of jingoistic media narratives and an overestimation of its own capabilities, was shattered against the bedrock of Pakistan’s preparedness. The ceasefire, brokered after frantic diplomatic efforts initiated due to India’s mounting losses and the clear trajectory towards a larger debacle, came as a face-saving measure for New Delhi. In the aftermath, a palpable sense of fear and caution has gripped the Indian military and political leadership regarding any future misadventures against Pakistan. Reliable military experts now concur that the drubbing received in May 2025 has forced India into a period of deep introspection and has significantly heightened its apprehension about Pakistan’s retaliatory capacity. The threats that now occasionally emanate from New Delhi are seen more as bluster to placate a domestic audience than as genuine indicators of offensive intent.
Pakistan’s Ascendance: Global Recognition of a Formidable Military Power
Pakistan’s decisive handling of the May 2025 conflict and its demonstrated military prowess have profoundly altered its international standing. The nation emerged from the war not just as a victor but as a mature and formidable military power, capable of defending its sovereignty with exceptional skill and resolve. Developed countries and leading military nations across the globe have taken note of Pakistan’s sophisticated use of modern technology, its operational excellence, and its strategic restraint even in the face of provocation, followed by a proportionally strong response.
The conflict highlighted Pakistan’s indigenous defence production capabilities, showcased by the performance of platforms like the JF-17 Thunder, and its ability to integrate diverse technologies into a cohesive war-fighting machine. There is now an undeniable respect for Pakistan’s armed forces in international defence circles. This respect is not just for their combat abilities but also for their strategic thinking and the calibrated nature of their responses, which successfully de-escalated a conflict initiated by India, but on Pakistan’s terms. The world now looks at Pakistan with increased dignity, recognizing it as a key anchor of stability and a nation whose military capabilities cannot be underestimated.

A New Dawn of Deterrence and Respect​

The Four-Day War of May 2025 was a watershed moment. It was a conflict that Pakistan did not seek but was thoroughly prepared for. India, driven by hegemonic ambitions and a flawed assessment of Pakistan’s strength, initiated hostilities only to find its military machine outfought, its strategic plans in disarray, and its international image severely dented.
Pakistan’s victory was a testament to its armed forces’ dedication, professionalism, and technological edge in critical areas. The downing of advanced Indian aircraft, including Rafales, the successful ground operations, and the overall strategic poise demonstrated by Pakistan have collectively reinforced its deterrence capabilities manifold. Pakistan has unequivocally proven that it stands as a formidable guardian of its frontiers, a nation where military excellence and unwavering national spirit converge. The global community now clearly recognizes Pakistan as a pivotal military power, a country that commands respect and whose commitment to peace is backed by the undeniable strength to defend it. The echoes of May 2025 continue to resonate, serving as a stark reminder that Pakistan’s era of being underestimated is decisively over.
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Altaf Moti​

Altaf Moti writes on diverse topics such as politics, economics, and society.

​

 

[Fatman17]

Dear all,

I have seen threads coming up about air defence etc. What we need is a dedicated thread. Topics I think need to be touched on are stocks of standoff missiles, air defence, the hurrying of Pakistani navy surface vessels etc.
I'll merge another thread later on regarding air defence.

Apologies no Indian posters please.

Indian posters are violating the instructions

 

[Oscar]

ANY further post discussing damage to PAF facilities will be deleted and posters banned from thread.

Talk to the acquisition news.
Any posters found spamming threads with the same propaganda narrative on damage to PAF facilities will be banned from the forum POST HASTE.

 

[Oscar]

India fired few missiles at Kamra airbase, both were intercepted as per my relative.

And I found this tweet and others also talking about attack on Kamra.

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I understand but you mentioned damage. Nothing damaged at Kamra.

 

[falcon34]

nothing worked, please buy more from china and turkey

Than what's this, why pathankot AFS is on fire???

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There are countless videos like these on X.
Sit your ass down ganges biomass.

 

[falcon34]

@Oscar
Panzerkiel mentioned in a other thread that they r some other long range conventional missiles in PA inventory. Do you have any idea about such.

 

[falcon34]

India has powerful space based network to be used for such situations.
Moreover, HUMINT may have played a bigger role in providing accurate information to confirm space based intel.

You lot were firing missiles out of desperation, here and there. I won't say further but IAF and IA got lucky this time around, Next time there's no holding back PAF and PA.
In the mean time can you produce debris of supposedly all the downed Fateh missiles?
Let's make it easy for you all the downed Yiha 3 drones?.
Hell why did modi not pose with chessboard radar?.
You can't answer any of these question can you.

 

[Oscar]

Replying to @Afif regarding his Brahmos piece:

Reading all of @arslank01 replies and @Oscar brief responses, overall it’s a great discussion with many great points and self-assessments.

I have a few things to say.

1. About the number of Brahmos that India may have in the inventory. When our war game thing was active, I did OSINT based analysis as thoroughly as I could. The number of brahmos in various config then seemed to be around 800-900 in Indian armed forces inventory. Not in 'thousands'. I could provide detailed evidence backed OSINT that I gathered back then if anyone interested. Production capacity does not necessarily always translate into actual inventory. Though Indian armed forces has a huge recourses compared Pak, it still has many other priorities. And then, there is the usual process of initial procurement plan, approval, order placement, then production and deliveries. Efficiency is not the exact attribute of Indian management and bureaucracy. Though I can see how they could up the number of systems in four digits.

2. About the effectiveness of HQ16EF and HQ-9BE. I disagree with @arslank01 . HQ9BE already has a new smaller interceptor designed to perform quick reaction tasks. Something like IRIS-T SLM maybe better than HQ16EF, it still won’t be a leap in capability over existing systems. Perhaps it wasn’t performance of the system themselves against Indian strikes, rather the number of them available in PAF inventory to be deployed at multiple places. From what I know, PA bought 9 batteries of HQ16 (in two batches over the years. 3+6) 1x battery of HQ-9P. While (from what I know) it is likely PAF only has 1x battery of HQ9BE and 1x battery of HQ16EF. This is very much insufficient given the number of bases and infrastructure PAF has and it need to protect. (Indians targeted 11 air bases) And It is unlikely they could heavily rely on PA HQ16 MRSAM. PA is already large enough and has its own critical assets+infra to protects. I think PAF needs a lot more Ad systems of its own. @Oscar could tell better.

3. The fact is that air bases are vulnerable. Specially when you lack strategic depth. Traditional AD is important but you can’t rely on it as your main defence to keep your large static infra (relatively) intact and preserve your combat power. As inevitably AD will loose the war of economics. It’s not just high-end capabilities like brahmos, it is also about enemy introducing cost effective guided rockets in the equation like Fatah-1. (Pinaka-3) that could be manufactured and inducted in thousands and can always saturate the most advanced AD in town. This is a big problem when you lack strategic depth. Even more so when you are the smaller one with significantly lesser recourses in the fight.

There is an aspect of Brahmos that is also being missed here as we are talking to the significant threat.

India has been producing Brahmos for a while now. But each Brahmos has been in batches with improvements coming in.

However, producing the missile is different from producing the launchers.

There may be 700-1200 Brahmos - not 1000 Launchers. Lets say there are 1200 Brahmos of all types.

Realistically, there is an allocated number per launcher based both upon expected expenditure and expected attrition/duds. This includes ground bases Brahmos, Air and Sea.

Which means to my limited knowledge and calculations on cost and production there are approximately 60 to 90 ground-based Brahmos launchers, including service spares. Each launcher carries about 3 missiles ready to launch, supported by 2 to 3 reload missiles per launcher on support vehicles (though actual reloads may be fewer). This results in roughly 180 to 270 missiles ready to launch on ground launchers, and including reloads, a total of 300 to 540 missiles allocated to ground forces.

Indian Air Force operates 40 to 60 missiles fitted on Su-30 MKI fighters, but considering aircraft serviceability, only about 20 to 25 missiles are realistically available for Brahmos missions at any time.
The remaining missiles, lets say at 400 to 660, are deployed aboard naval vessels, including missiles in canisters ready to launch and reloads or those in reserve at Naval storage sites or replenishment auxiliaries.

The current production capacity is around 80 to 100 missiles annually which includes those replacing older variants past their 10 year shelf life.

There is also consideration for reserves for a potential conflict with China, India would likely adopt a phased missile usage pattern against Pakistan as we saw in practice. Instead of launching all out saturation strikes even in a full scale attack, initial salvoes would involve launching approximately 75 to 120 missiles across ground, air, and naval platforms to conserve stocks. Ground launchers might fire 2 to 3 missiles each, IAF would be deployed in smaller waves of 1 to 2 missiles per sortie, and naval strikes would be limited to 5 to 15 missiles per engagement. Follow ons would be spaced out to allow for reloads and logistical replenishment.

So yes, it is a fearsome arsenal but there are real world considerations to think for before thinking gloom and doom.

Pakistan for that matter also phases its responses but unlike India it has very few immediate threats to worry about.

 

[ziaulislam]

SIr, In hindsight now, i understand we had a political pressure not to proceed with immdiate response. if you noticed after 7-May-25 air Battle , what was telegraphed in words of Political setup was to de-escalate. LM/Drones was creating panic and Military leadership was put under stress for what - not to respond.

if you noticed, deployment of Fatteh 1 GMRLS was already done by the morning of 7-May-25. it was the political leadership that was faltering this time not the military. they knew this will escalate.

First, I'm asking — where are the images showing that we were actually hit?
Should we start listing what we hit?

Our Air Force was “paralyzed,” yet we were destroying PAF airbases across the length and breadth of Pakistan.
And if the PAF was dominating, why were they launching ground-to-ground missiles from civilian areas?

And what even is a “nuclear-based missile”?
The idea that Pakistan didn’t retaliate is wrong — it simply had no options left.

It was Pakistan that escalated things.
It started with a drone on 7th May.
On 8th May, Indian drones were flying all over Pakistan. Take an ad break with that.

Then Pakistan came with rockets, Fateh-1, Fateh-2, and CM-400 — every single one of them was intercepted.

When we started with missiles, we hit everything we aimed at with impunity — completely unchallenged.

And am not going to replay again

So all the blasts around the bases are fake? I mean we have literally 100s of videos on social media that can be located to indian airbases

We also have 5 CONFIRMED aircraft debrie

Pakistan didnt even went nuclear like india did, we never used MRV capable ababeel or shaheen or babur series

To sum it up, his hand gesture gives it away

 

[ziaulislam]

The message from top to HOLD meant no more attacks but could never mean no more defense.

Our AD was probably not as effective as Indian AD. S-400 is indeed considered one of the best systems in the world so it wouldn't really be a surprise that it did its job rather effectively.

The most important thing to note here is that high supersonic missiles like Brahmos (and possibly CM-400AKG) were rather effective whereas effectiveness of Fatah rockets is questionable unless satellite imagery is made availale of meaningful damage to Indian Military Targets.

Fateh can be intercepted obviously but the point here is to overwhelm the defense with share numbers just like how drones are suppose to do(but soft kill systems are coming up rapidly

 

[Olympus81]

Post war assessment

Pakistan side

Well done to PAF, defending its own airspace and downing IAF jets after which the IAF withdrew.

Hitting IAF bases was a good reply, albeit with the Fatah 1.

Taking out S400s in Bhuj and Adampur, was a good initiative. A solid proof of the destroyed cheeseboards would be a welcome step.

Improvement Areas

After May 8, when PAF had air superiority deep inside Indian IB (as the IAF went to sleep), that was a good time for PAF to strike and take out India’s AD and drone launchpads.

PAF and PA would do well to shore up with SHORADs to take out Indian drones rather than relying on its AD.

The antidote of Brahmos may not fully be in deploying countermeasures against a supersonic missile. Pakistan would do well to produce its own supersonic missiles (import in the interim). That would give the adversary second thoughts before deploying its own.

 

[Oscar]

When we started with missiles, we hit everything we aimed at with impunity — completely unchallenged.

And am not going to replay again

Please dont - nonsense can only be tolerated once. Any further attempts will be aimed at with impunity and permanently.