PTI News, Updates and Discussion

[krash]

There’s a crucial difference this time around, one that many deliberately overlook......

For the first time in the nation’s history, an overwhelming majority of Pakistanis are not happy with the Army’s blatant interference in politics.... Under Zia and Musharraf, the public naively celebrated martial law, deceived into believing that politicians were inherently evil and corrupt, and the Army their redeemer.

That illusion has finally collapsed....and the consequences of this "awakening" will be profound and enduring...

No chance. Pakistanis have yet again missed the trees for the forest and placed their Stockholm Syndrome in the hands of another incompetent and corrupt politician and his political party with slave-like subservience. What you see with Khan was played out with Bhutto and Nawaz before. He is nothing new or different.

Tomorrow when PTI inevitably pendulates back to the top, through the machinations of the same hyenas trampling the same democratic principles, this hyperbole with regards to "democratic rights" will be for another dense group of Pakistanis to abuse. Khan at that moment will have attained Bhutto-like prophethood, until the swing back.

 

[Meengla]

@Meengla sb

To me, Pakistan of 2023-25 looks like IND of 1991-93, apparently stagnating but in reality reforms were creating the base for a take-off (something not in the scale, scope or pace of China for reasons that cannot be covered in this thread). What helped India was stability in the next 25 years (barring the 1996-98 interlude) as @Respect4Respect points out. If the Fauj is sensible enough to let the civvies breathe and have at least 5 years innings, no reason why Pak can't achieve a 5-6% growth at least for the next 25 years.

Regards

Good post.
Well, it became a 'do or die' situation for Pakistan in 2022. A fiscal 'default' was imminent. The whole world saw the embarrassing images of Sri Lanka going to a default around that time. And Sri Lanka doesn't even have the internal fissures like Pakistan nor the external enemies like Pakistan.

As to the role of the Pakistani Establishment, they have concluded that the experimentations with the democracy in Pakistan since Zia's death in 1988 have failed and failed spectacularly with their latest install of the Messiah Khan, and so now there is just a civilian facade but still with considerable popular support. The idea is to revive Pakistan's economy come what way. The civilians are given some space and I absolutely see no reason why Pakistan wouldn't be achieving good growth starting in about 3-4 years.

 

[Goenitz]

5. Social decay. The crime rate is high. Police/FIA/MI/ISI are allegedly harassing businessmen for money. The brain drain is real, and all left behind are menial workers, bureaucracy, priests, and soldiers.

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[Respect4Respect]

Good post.
Well, it became a 'do or die' situation for Pakistan in 2022. A fiscal 'default' was imminent. The whole world saw the embarrassing images of Sri Lanka going to a default around that time. And Sri Lanka doesn't even have the internal fissures like Pakistan nor the external enemies like Pakistan.

As to the role of the Pakistani Establishment, they have concluded that the experimentations with the democracy in Pakistan since Zia's death in 1988 have failed and failed spectacularly with their latest install of the Messiah Khan, and so now there is just a civilian facade but still with considerable popular support. The idea is to revive Pakistan's economy come what way. The civilians are given some space and I absolutely see no reason why Pakistan wouldn't be achieving good growth starting in about 3-4 years.

@SoulSpokesman you should have asked him what really pushed Pakistan into a “do or die” situation in 2022. Perhaps it was the regime change that brought the country to its knees, after all Pakistan had handled Covid19 better than some first world countries, achieved 6% growth, and still had around $17B in reserves in April 2022 when Imran Khan left. Yet within just six months of the PDM’s takeover, those reserves had all but disappeared. Every sector is collapsing except the military empire which continues to thrive and is worth billions of dollars.

That guy is straight up lying, there is no genuine support for the Form-47 government. Can you believe Nawaz Sharif (and Maryam) a 3 time prime minister lost in his own backyard of Lahore. A city where he ruled for four decades, with unlimited resources and the full backing of state machinery from the judiciary and army to the election commission. And he was still defeated by PTI’s Yasmin Rashid which is like a tiny ant toppling an elephant.

The establishment and PDM were so terrified of elections that they openly violated the Supreme Court’s judgment ordering them to hold polls. Instead they installed their own judges, stole PTI’s electoral symbol, and still got humiliated managing only 17 seats.

 

[VCheng]

@SoulSpokesman you should have asked him what really pushed Pakistan into a “do or die” situation in 2022. Perhaps it was the regime change that brought the country to its knees, after all Pakistan had handled Covid19 better than some first world countries, achieved 6% growth, and still had around $17B in reserves in April 2022 when Imran Khan left. Yet within just six months of the PDM’s takeover, those reserves had all but disappeared. Every sector is collapsing except the military empire which continues to thrive and is worth billions of dollars.

That guy is straight up lying, there is no genuine support for the Form-47 government. Can you believe Nawaz Sharif (and Maryam) a 3 time prime minister lost in his own backyard of Lahore. A city where he ruled for four decades, with unlimited resources and the full backing of state machinery from the judiciary and army to the election commission. And he was still defeated by PTI’s Yasmin Rashid which is like a tiny ant toppling an elephant.

The establishment and PDM were so terrified of elections that they openly violated the Supreme Court’s judgment ordering them to hold polls. Instead they installed their own judges, stole PTI’s electoral symbol, and still got humiliated managing only 17 seats.

What about now? Has Pakistan moved on from this "do-or-die" situation from 2022, especially economically? If so, then some things were done right even after IK's removal, or at least that is what the evidence would support, whether anyone accepts it or not.

 

[Respect4Respect]

What about now? Has Pakistan moved on from this "do-or-die" situation from 2022, especially economically? If so, then some things were done right even after IK's removal, or at least that is what the evidence would support, whether anyone accepts it or not.

It's the same IMO or worse in some cases. Nothing will change without political stability and that can only come through elections. No matter how much you try to avoid that fact, it remains the only solution.

And even if rivers of milk and honey miraculously start flowing in Pakistan, it won't change the fact that this is a stolen mandate, imposed by an illegitimate government with no right to be there.

If a land grabber breaks into your home and starts acting like the man of the house, you'll never accept him as the rightful owner, no matter how kind or generous he pretends to be. So if you're so comfortable with illegitimate rule why not just become a colony of the U.S or China instead?

 

[VCheng]

It's the same IMO or worse in some cases.

Really? The economy is the same or worse than what it was in 2022?

 

[Respect4Respect]

Really? The economy is the same or worse than what it was in 2022?

Ishaq dar's economy or the ground reality?

 

[Meengla]

The establishment and PDM were so terrified of elections that they openly violated the Supreme Court’s judgment ordering them to hold polls. Instead they installed their own judges, stole PTI’s electoral symbol, and still got humiliated managing only 17 seats.

If the Messiah Khan was so popular, he would have called Early Elections by late 2021 when he knew the military, which propped him to power and sustained him in power, was removing the support. He had the Const. right to call Early Elections but the Coward 'Khan' was too cowardly for that. He was too cowardly to face a regular No Confidence Motion which the Prime Ministers in democracies always face and some times lose and they live to fight another day. The Messiah Khan was too unpopular by the time of the NCM vote but, unfortunately, he was given one full year to build his 'narrative' of Anti Americanism to win popularity in a country like Pakistan where Anti Americanism runs deep. The irony is that his sons have recently called America their 'main' hope to release their Messiah Khan dad from the prison!!! How conveniently hypocritical!! But then--it is a cult and you, as another expat in the West, are part of that cult!!

If his regime was so good, he would have trust in himself to call Early Elections. But he was not popular then and he will, if God curses Pakistan to be ruled by him, will lose the popularity within a few short months.

 

[VCheng]

Ishaq dar's economy or the ground reality?

I always prefer reality over any spin, no matter which government, but that is just my preference.

 

[nahtanbob]

Not a Pakistani here

I do not agree with Imran Khan on everything., He has a whacked-up worldview. On the issue of civilian supremacy and accountability, he has gotten it right. History will be on his side.

The real issue is not the military generals wanting to be in charge. It is more like they won't take responsibility for the bad decisions. It is always the fault of the civilians.

 

[Path-Finder]

I will gladly defend and support our military to the hilt,

no, the fauji are not bhagwan that they have become! they are servants of the state. for as long as they go around fidling in matters beyond their scope and the people of Pakistan have awaken to this matter. either they will remain or Pakistan. Both can no longer coexist.

 

[VCheng]

either they will remain or Pakistan. Both can no longer coexist.

But that is precisely the dilemma: either they learn to coexist with each other, or neither will exist. Choose wisely.

 

[SoulSpokesman]

@Meengla sb

There is a theory that IK wanted the COAS Mir Bajwa to help him rig and win a mid-term polls in 2021-22 timeframe in return for giving him a third term as COAS. While Jarnail sab was game for a third time, he balked at the idea of rigging another polls for Kaptaan sb. This is what caused a fallout between the two and then the whole regime change drama etc. But again, this is only a theory, no one can prove or disprove it.

@Path-Finder

they are servants of the state.

No, sir, they are its owners. Pakistan, like Prussia before it, is an Army with a state, not the other way round.

Regards

 

[Respect4Respect]

If the Messiah Khan was so popular, he would have called Early Elections by late 2021 when he knew the military, which propped him to power and sustained him in power, was removing the support. He had the Const. right to call Early Elections but the Coward 'Khan' was too cowardly for that. He was too cowardly to face a regular No Confidence Motion which the Prime Ministers in democracies always face and some times lose and they live to fight another day. The Messiah Khan was too unpopular by the time of the NCM vote but, unfortunately, he was given one full year to build his 'narrative' of Anti Americanism to win popularity in a country like Pakistan where Anti Americanism runs deep. The irony is that his sons have recently called America their 'main' hope to release their Messiah Khan dad from the prison!!! How conveniently hypocritical!! But then--it is a cult and you, as another expat in the West, are part of that cult!!

If his regime was so good, he would have trust in himself to call Early Elections. But he was not popular then and he will, if God curses Pakistan to be ruled by him, will lose the popularity within a few short months.

You claim Imran Khan was too afraid to call early elections but the record shows otherwise. In April 2022 when the no confidence motion was tabled, IK dissolved the National Assembly and explicitly called for fresh elections. It was the Supreme Court that struck down that move and reinstated parliament, so the claim that he avoided elections is simply false, he tried but the system blocked him.

Don't pretend he was unpopular, his rallies in March/April 2022 drew record crowds and after the regime change PTI swept by elections across the country despite establishment's cheap tactics. Every independent survey at the time clearly ranked him as the most popular leader in Pakistan, if he was so unpopular why did people keep voting for him?

The no confidence motion itself was not a routine democratic exercise, it was engineered by GHQ through backroom deals, pressure tactics and floor crossing so calling that a normal democracy is wild.

As for your "anti-Americanism" claim, IK's criticism was always directed at U.S. foreign policy, not at ordinary Americans. His sons appealing to international community for his release is not hypocrisy, its what families of political prisoners have always done when justice is denied at home.
IK wasn't removed for being unpopular, he was removed because Bajwa wanted another extension. Call it what you like but the system you're defending isn't democracy, it's dictatorship in disguise.