PTI News, Updates and Discussion

[VCheng]

did Asim Munir break his oath and violate the constitution of Pakistan or not?

Absolutely YES.

From the time of mardood Gen Zia till now, many others have committed this ongoing and grave and treasonous crime against the State of Pakistan, its Constitution and its people, and this travesty continues even today. 100%.

I hope that is clear enough for you.

 

[Oscar]

Absolutely not! Where have I ever supported the corrupt establishment?! NEVER.

And that remains your fundamental and emotional flaw. Anyone who does not admire IK as you do is NOT your enemy or necessarily support the corrupt establishment.

Can you please understand that basic concept before we engage any further? Thanks.

Unfortunately this binary thinking will be the undoing of humanity.

 

[Distant_Observer]

Absolutely not! Where have I ever supported the corrupt establishment?! NEVER.

And that remains your fundamental and emotional flaw. Anyone who does not admire IK as you do is NOT your enemy or necessarily support the corrupt establishment.

Can you please understand that basic concept before we engage any further? Thanks.

I prefer the establishment over the dross in their political system. Better the devil you know as they say.

It's like a pick n mix, you never know what you're going to get. Last 30 years have been a waste of time. I never really valued the Pakistani version of democracy. It's a bunch of illiterates choosing their favourite symbol at the ballot box.

It's good the fauj is taking the steer again. They should keep this going for as long as possible. No need for elections for atleast 10 years.

 

[Respect4Respect]

Absolutely not! Where have I ever supported the corrupt establishment?! NEVER.

And that remains your fundamental and emotional flaw. Anyone who does not admire IK as you do is NOT your enemy or necessarily support the corrupt establishment.

Can you please understand that basic concept before we engage any further? Thanks.

Absolutely YES.

From the time of mardood Gen Zia till now, many others have committed this ongoing and grave and treasonous crime against the State of Pakistan, its Constitution and its people, and this travesty continues even today. 100%.

I hope that is clear enough for you.

Look I don’t care if you hate IK or not that’s your problem, my main concern is the Pakistani people. We all have different likes and dislikes but when you use phrases like "a wannabe-dictator-ul-momineen demagogue" against someone, you’re clearly showing your personal bias. Why don’t you use the same kind of language for others, like Nawaz Sharif or Asim Munir? Especially when you claim that the generals have committed grave and treasonous crimes against Pakistan, why is your outrage directed at politicians who are jailed by those anti state generals that violated the constitution in the first place.

 

[VCheng]

I prefer the establishment over the dross in their political system. Better the devil you know as they say.

You are entitled to your views of course.

Having identified the military as the root cause, I am also broad-minded enough to understand that as evil as they may be as illegal usurpers of power, the transition back into Constitutional and effective civilian power cannot be achieved suddenly or drastically, and certainly never by revolution, without placing the very existence of Pakistan itself at risk.

Hence, that is not a realistic option.

The problem now becomes how to convince the military itself to stop actively destroying any and all beginnings of such a transition, since they continue to ensure that no civilian authority can mount a challenge to their illegal and absolute hold on power.

Frankly, I came to the conclusion a long time ago that such a solution would not be possible in my lifetime, so I decided to leave the country. I may be wrong here, but I am still waiting to be proven wrong in that personal opinion of mine.

 

[VCheng]

phrases like "a wannabe-dictator-ul-momineen demagogue"

Every word is that phrase is rooted in factual bases, sadly:

IK wanted absolute power but failed (wannabe dictator), idealized the caliphate (ul-momineen) model of Raisat-e-Medina, and frankly was nothing more than a demagogue who led his congregation astray by his lies (the cipher hoax and much more besides).

Demagogue: A leader who obtains power by means of impassioned appeals to the emotions and prejudices of the populace

Why don’t you use the same kind of language for others, like Nawaz Sharif or Asim Munir?

I have used far worse language against NS and his blood sucking clan and all the Bhutto politicians in particular, and ALL the military dictators, every one of them, without any exception.

the generals have committed grave and treasonous crimes against Pakistan

Absolutely agreed. And those crimes are happening unabated even today.

why is your outrage directed at politicians

If I have any outrage for politicians, it is solely because of their willingness to become useful pawns for their own gains. (Remember who was at one time happy to be on the same page as the GHQ, for example.) In that, they become enablers of the military's evil acts, even though they are discarded as suddenly as they are created.

My real anger and outrage is always reserved for the military for their illegal acts, and never at them when they perform their constitutionally mandated duties with honor and responsibility.

 

[VCheng]

Look I don’t care if you hate IK or not that’s your problem, my main concern is the Pakistani people.

Equally, I also do not care if you worship IK or not. That is your problem, not mine. My main concern is the Pakistani people also.

 

[Respect4Respect]

Every word is that phrase is rooted in factual bases, sadly:

IK wanted absolute power but failed (wannabe dictator), idealized the caliphate (ul-momineen) model of Raisat-e-Medina, and frankly was nothing more than a demagogue who led his congregation astray by his lies (the cipher hoax and much more besides).

Demagogue: A leader who obtains power by means of impassioned appeals to the emotions and prejudices of the populace

Those are just empty claims dressed up as facts. Look I’m not here to defend IK but you and others keep dragging him into every argument. As I’ve said before my main concern has always been the people of Pakistan.

Let me quickly give you counterpoints. IK came to power through elections and even won while being in jail so is that dictatorship or the will of the people? And if someone cites the example of Riyasat e Medina does that automatically make him Ameer ul Momineen? By that logic what would you call Shahbaz Sharif who wanted to turn Lahore into Paris?...He simply laid out his policies and people had the choice to accept or reject them. The majority of voters agreed with him which is why he came to power, it’s not as if he was fooling schoolchildren by handing out candies.

I have used far worse language against NS and his blood sucking clan and all the Bhutto politicians in particular, and ALL the military dictators, every one of them, without any exception.

please give some examples.

If I have any outrage for politicians, it is solely because of their willingness to become useful pawns for their own gains. (Remember who was at one time happy to be on the same page as the GHQ, for example.) In that, they become enablers of the military's evil acts, even though they are discarded as suddenly as they are created.

First of all IK was brought to power by votes just like every leader before him. They all had to earn support at the ground level because generals can’t buy you votes. Just look at Nawaz Sharif who couldn’t even win in his own backyard of Lahore despite having the entire state machinery behind him. That alone proves the so‑called kingmakers aren’t nearly as good at creating leaders as some people like to believe.

My real anger and outrage is always reserved for the military for their illegal acts, and never at them when they perform their constitutionally mandated duties with honor and responsibility.

I’ve been here long enough to notice your outrage is always selective. Lets change that today and hear your thoughts on Asim Munir.

Equally, I also do not care if you worship IK or not. That is your problem, not mine. My main concern is the Pakistani people also.

I am a Muslim, I don’t bow down to or worship human beings.

 

[Oscar]

I prefer the establishment over the dross in their political system. Better the devil you know as they say.

It's like a pick n mix, you never know what you're going to get. Last 30 years have been a waste of time. I never really valued the Pakistani version of democracy. It's a bunch of illiterates choosing their favourite symbol at the ballot box.

It's good the fauj is taking the steer again. They should keep this going for as long as possible. No need for elections for atleast 10 years.

What is the guarantee that the devil you know is not the unknown devil?
After all the establishment is made of up of the EXACT same genetic, social and character beginnings as the dross.
There is only so much the ISSB filter does.

 

[VCheng]

Look I’m not here to defend IK but you and others keep dragging him into every argument.

LOL. Have you tried reading the title of this thread?

please give some examples.

Please go through my tens of thousands of posts over more than a decade if you want to seek such examples.

First of all IK was brought to power by votes just like every leader before him.

LOL. He was installed by military shenanigans, like every "leader" before him. And he was kicked out the same way.

I’ve been here long enough to notice your outrage is always selective.

Not long enough.

I am a Muslim, I don’t bow down to or worship human beings.

Please read your posts in this thread above, and note definition #3 below:

worship /wûr′shĭp/

noun​

1. The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.
2. The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed.
   "a chapel where worship is held daily."
3. Ardent admiration or love; adoration.
   "the worship of celebrities."

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition

 

[Respect4Respect]

LOL. Have you tried reading the title of this thread?

You’re not the only one with eyes, everyone can read the title. Your entire argument revolves around a single person and yet you have the audacity to claim that PTI supporters are blind followers. Lol.

Please go through my tens of thousands of posts over more than a decade if you want to seek such examples.

I don’t have time to go through walls of text, either show a few good examples or admit your argument is empty claims.

LOL. He was installed by military shenanigans, like every "leader" before him. And he was kicked out the same way.

GHQ doesn’t have a magic wand to conjure up Prime Ministers out of thin air. These leaders built their positions through decades of politics and real public support. If it’s that simple then ask Asim Munir to jump into elections and beat every party to crown himself king.

Not long enough.

you just like to make funny claims

Please read your posts in this thread above, and note definition #3 below:

That word has multiple meanings, and I can’t infer your intentions from it.

 

[Cipher212]

I think Imran Khan gets more criticism because people actually expected something from him. You can say with some degree of confidence that he is an honest person and in politics, on this entire planet it is hard to find such people (that can also win a popular vote).

From the others like Nawaz and gang, there was never any expectation. In fact the MO is "khaata hay tou lagaata bhi hay".

At the very bottom we have PPP and how they've turned Karachi into the world's largest trash heap and how they make sure no one but Bhutto is alive in interior Sindh.

For me and I think a lot of other PTI supporters. He is on the "fool me once" stage. He's been brought and then burned by the establishment ONCE, while every other party has been through the revolving door multiple times, which suggests that they are not only accepting of establishment rule but happy to play along with it.

However, the minute he makes a deal with the establishment his support will end.

 

[Forsvaret]

think Imran Khan gets more criticism because people actually expected something from him.

You simply can’t expect anything from a person without real power on the ground. Imran Khan wasn’t allowed to bring any lasting reforms by the military establishment. As soon he was gone, they reversed many of the good laws his govt had passed such as the use of EVM machines to stop election rigging and theft (like the one military establishment orchestrated in 2024 to bring current unelected lot to power).

 

[Cipher212]

You can’t expect anything from a person without real power on the ground. Imran Khan wasn’t allowed to bring any lasting reforms by the military establishment. As soon his govt was gone, they reversed many of the laws his govt passed such as the use of EVM machines to stop election theft.

Well it begs the question what did he expect when he took power in 2018 with barely enough seats for a coalition govt. They had him neutered from the start and he knew it.

Matlab he lived through Ayub, Yahya and Zia and genuinely thought that army is going to work with him or even listen to his order? Ye uski sab se barri ghalti thi.

 

[Forsvaret]

Well it begs the question what did he expect when he took power in 2018 with barely enough seats for a coalition govt. They had him neutered from the start and he knew it.

Matlab he lived through Ayub, Yahya and Zia and genuinely thought that army is going to work with him or even listen to his order? Ye uski sab se barri ghalti thi.

That’s right. Even if Imran Khan had come into power with 2/3 majority, he wouldn’t be able to bring about any lasting change—because the real power on the ground is always in the hands of military establishment. Just look at KPK province for instance. PTI has 2/3 majority in parliament there but can’t do no shit without military establishment’s nod.