mythbuster
Trusted Member
It means Nathoram meets Allahditta
Reforming Command Without Weakening It - Part 1 - A Pragmatic Approach for Systemic reform in Pakistan starting with the Army
- Thread starter Oscar
- Start date
Solomon2
Elite Member
In general, "Pot meet kettle" is an observation - or accusation - of hypocrisy.
This proverb is meant to highlight psychological projection. It may be that of the target or that of the person employing it.
RescueRanger
Meme Lord
mythbuster
Trusted Member
Did you just googled the meaning?
Meengla
Elite Member
I am pleased with the current hybrid system and wish it to continue for many more years. BTW, I don't consider there is a reason to divide the military and the civilians: They are all cut from the same cloth.
Owaiz
Registered Member
Since India , Pakistan and Bangladesh were part of the same political entity till 1947 and Pakistan and Bangladesh were part of the same political entity till 1971 , it is only natural and obvious to make this comparison. What is stupid is to shut off one's cognitive faculties to obvious facts that stare you in the face.
Did the Lahore Resolution say that Pakistan has to be a security state ? Or did representatives of the people elected through even sham elections decide it must be so ? Just because someone has done kabza on the state doesn't mean it is the natural order of things.
Here is some food for thought for you. Bangladesh, Sri Lanka , Nepal spend far less than Pakistan on defence and have all had serious disputes with India. Yet, they have all retained their sovereignty and territory and have a reasonable peaceful internal security situation . On the other hand, Pakistan has nukes and has kept spending on defence even if it has had to go the IMF more times than any other country in the world. Yet it has lost territory to war and has the worst internal security situation. Perhaps, if the resources had been spent on developing social and economic capital instead of a security state, Pakistan could have been an economic tiger instead of a basket case.
Hopefully Pessimistic
Registered Member
don't be an idiot, being a security state is a structural reality not something written in a constitutional clause, and now comparing it again with Bangladesh and Nepal which are homogenous nations with no security challenges after already being explained the obvious difference is just wilful stupidity
SecularNationalist
Elite Member
Ok got it there was a vaccum that forced the army to become what it is today and all other reasons etc. But the problem is now this institution has tasted blood and it's now addictive to drink blood. The whole institution won't be able to give up it's luxurious and corrupt ways of living. They will not accept any reforms that promote the real democracy in the country and make the civilian institutions powerful. They know well their evil role in politics doesn't fit well in a democracy. Call it a dictator ship or a democracy. If democracy then this type of institution has no place in pakistan.
I don't wanna use harsh words just this sentence.
When the infection is mild we take antibiotics,but when it's gangrene we need amputation. What we are facing is gangrene.Baaki samajdaar ko ishara kaafi.
I don't wanna use harsh words just this sentence.
When the infection is mild we take antibiotics,but when it's gangrene we need amputation. What we are facing is gangrene.Baaki samajdaar ko ishara kaafi.
puttputt
Registered Member
In Pakistan, the civilian elites were flawed at their origin.
Most of the political elite were from landed classes that, not unlike senior Army leaders in 1947, saw themselves as a higher class than Pakistanis.
Whether they rule for 1 year, 10 years, or 100 years, they'll largely come to the same outcomes.
You can see it in Sindh with the PPP. They've run the show there for the past 25 years, and have, at their disposal, the country's most active port and key metropolis. What have they achieved?
Whatever its flaws, the one thing the Army always had (and still does) is the sense that anybody can technically join it and climb the ranks.
For all his issues, Gen. Asim Munir reflects that 'out of left field' possibility, whereas the political parties are the same families over and over again.
Solomon2
Elite Member
Are you sure that returning power to civilian institutions - I think you mean the elected parliament and a judiciary whose jurisdiction includes the military - will promote the kind of "real democracy" a "secular nationalist" wants?
SoulSpokesman
Trusted Member
@Owaiz sb
To be fair there are reasons why Pakistan became a security state and not all of it can be attributed to "wickedness" on part of its civilian or military elite.
Let us begin with the creation of Pak state itself.
1) While the INC and the caste Hindu elite were fully on board in the creation of Pakistan, they refused to admit it in public. Several senior leaders expressed the views that Pakistan was an unnatural state and would fold back to India.
2) The moment that Pak was created, it ended up in war with IND over the Princely states issue. We will for the time being omit who was responsible for the same, but the fact is that irrespective of the answer, a newly born state found itself embroiled in a war with a much bigger sibling state.
3) Then there was the issue of the split geography with two equally populous wings being separated by a 1000 miles of territory of the same enemy sibling state. Not something that could have brought a great deal of comfort to the fledgling state.
As if the creation was not problematic enough, you had another neighbor openly denying the legitimacy of the state and extending irredentist claims over the newly born. Now one may argue so what-IND faces similar claims over Kashmir- the answer is obvious the territory that AFG claims from PAK is about 15-20% of the area and population- not the measly 1% that Kashmir represents of IND.
Now on top of that you had a situation where the bulk of the initial political and bureaucratic elite came from Muslim minority provinces and found themselves under seize from more numerous native Muslim populace.
Under these circumstances, it is hardly to be wondered that the inherent insecurity and the geopolitical instability more or less ensured that PAK would become a security state with stunted civilian apparatus.
Regards
To be fair there are reasons why Pakistan became a security state and not all of it can be attributed to "wickedness" on part of its civilian or military elite.
Let us begin with the creation of Pak state itself.
1) While the INC and the caste Hindu elite were fully on board in the creation of Pakistan, they refused to admit it in public. Several senior leaders expressed the views that Pakistan was an unnatural state and would fold back to India.
2) The moment that Pak was created, it ended up in war with IND over the Princely states issue. We will for the time being omit who was responsible for the same, but the fact is that irrespective of the answer, a newly born state found itself embroiled in a war with a much bigger sibling state.
3) Then there was the issue of the split geography with two equally populous wings being separated by a 1000 miles of territory of the same enemy sibling state. Not something that could have brought a great deal of comfort to the fledgling state.
As if the creation was not problematic enough, you had another neighbor openly denying the legitimacy of the state and extending irredentist claims over the newly born. Now one may argue so what-IND faces similar claims over Kashmir- the answer is obvious the territory that AFG claims from PAK is about 15-20% of the area and population- not the measly 1% that Kashmir represents of IND.
Now on top of that you had a situation where the bulk of the initial political and bureaucratic elite came from Muslim minority provinces and found themselves under seize from more numerous native Muslim populace.
Under these circumstances, it is hardly to be wondered that the inherent insecurity and the geopolitical instability more or less ensured that PAK would become a security state with stunted civilian apparatus.
Regards
