Sea Sultan Long-Range MPA | Updates & Discussion

[Tomcats]

Sea Sultan is a commerical Embraer jet modified with military equipment by Leonardo etc. Any Embraer spares that go into the Sea Sultan will be commercial products.

What I keep trying to point out is that 1,700+ commercial Embraer E-Jets (Gen 1) have been made. These jets operate around the world. These jets get retired around the world. Embraer cannot blacklist everyone in the world for selling PN commerical spares off a retired E-Jet in a boneyard (or similar facility). Embraer is not the US govt. They realistically cannot control what everyone does with used aircraft and spares, just like they couldn't stop PN from purchasing PN's current Lineage 1000 airframes.

Yes, you can't compare Pakistan and Iran. Iran is a globally sanctioned country while Pakistan maintains relatively decent relationships with everyone. Please stop saying Iran's spares/jets are for commerical use. Under sanctions, Iran cannot receive spares for commercial aircraft, yet they continue to figure it out.

PN does not have to make a deal with Embraer, at least not for spares.

There's also the conversation of 3rd part manufactured spares from companies like Heico etc.

E.g. US contractor airlines operate hundreds of E-Jets. They can sell these aircrafts to whatever boneyard or parts harvesters they want upon retiring. These 3rd parties are not official Embraer customers and they do not owe Embraer anything on who they sell their parts to.

And please don't say Embraer can blacklist airlines to sell retired E-Jets to such boneyards/harvesters. It's Embraer, not Ferrari or someone, and their market power is overarching over large customers.

I don't think its that simple, even Russian airlines have progressively been struggling to keep more aircraft airworthy each year. I'm sure they are also actively searching for parts illicitly for airbus and Boeing aircraft, yet still this is the case.

Russian airlines face summer squeeze as one in five aircraft grounded

A new report reveals that 19.3% of the aircraft operated by Russia’s major airlines are grounded for technical reasons.

aerospaceglobalnews.com

 

[Colt_Six_Nine]

No they won’t , it’s not a commercial jet anymore , as soon as pn registered it became a military jet

It can be registered as a clown car ffs but that doesn't change what physical spares go into it.
The whole point of using commercial platforms like 737 for E7, Bombardier for GlobalEye and Lineage for Sea Sultan is parts commonality.

 

[Colt_Six_Nine]

I don't think its that simple, even Russian airlines have progressively been struggling to keep more aircraft airworthy each year. I'm sure they are also actively searching for parts illicitly for airbus and Boeing aircraft, yet still this is the case.

Russian airlines face summer squeeze as one in five aircraft grounded

A new report reveals that 19.3% of the aircraft operated by Russia’s major airlines are grounded for technical reasons.

aerospaceglobalnews.com

Please differentiate between the US and European governments blacklisting Russian vs Embraer not wanting to sell some spare parts.
Selling spare parts to Russians can land you in prison. Selling used Embraer E-Jet parts have no legal consequences outside of Embraer not wanting to do business with you.

 

[hasssanali8998]

It can be registered as a clown car ffs but that doesn't change what physical spares go into it.
The whole point of using commercial platforms like 737 for E7, Bombardier for GlobalEye and Lineage for Sea Sultan is parts commonality.

its doesnt work like that this is not car for which u can buy parts where ever u find them , safety in avaition requires detailed records and guess what ,they track each and every single thing by serials and where the parts are headed .

even if u could buy them from black market , you are not guaranteed to find the parts everytime u need them , so u will most likely have to ground your fleet till u find them on the black market again . hence a need for deal with embraer and why u cant rely in black markets


i am not going to reply again as this seems to be circlejerk Arguement, believe what you want , naveed making parts himself or even munir etc etc i dont care

 

[Yasser76]

Please differentiate between the US and European governments blacklisting Russian vs Embraer not wanting to sell some spare parts.
Selling spare parts to Russians can land you in prison. Selling used Embraer E-Jet parts have no legal consequences outside of Embraer not wanting to do business with you.

Dude, move on, they do not have a clue. Ask them how we can operate converted Dassault 20S and ATRs despite France being an Indian ally.

They literally do not have a clue....

 

[hasssanali8998]

Dassault 20S

1960s jet , even iranian army uses it

ATRs

50% of ATR is owned by leanardo ( which is a contractor for SS )
we have a pretty good relation with them , and they provide us support


u cant stop humiliating yourself cant you

 

[Yasser76]

1960s jet , even iranian army uses it

50% of ATR is owned by leanardo ( which is a contractor for SS )
we have a pretty good relation with them , and they provide us support


u cant stop humiliating yourself cant you

I am aware of that, but France and Italy both have a veto and none have used it, so try again.

Also noticed you cannot have an answer for the Dassault 20 being used as an EW platform by PAF. Will give you a hint to help, Leonardo dont won 50% of Dassault.

I'll wait now.....

 

[Yasser76]

and if "even Iranian army uses it" is your best comeback then go back and write a better prompt for ChatGPT again

 

[hasssanali8998]

and if "even Iranian army uses it" is your best comeback

because it shows how easy it is to get parts for D20 , even iranis can operate them

 

[hasssanali8998]

anyways , i asked AK01 since he is not gonna come here anymore , here is his answer to finally clear things up

The secondary market is not an infinite scrap yard you can just browse at will. Pakistanis can only buy used historically it relies on components backed by FAA 8130-3 or EASA Form 1 release, means ur not just buying them from some tom dick or harry. Reputable suppliers and MROs value their many milly dollar OEM agreements more than a one off sale to a sanctioned operator. Vendors will actively avoid PN out of fear of upsetting Embraer and losing their own approvals and statuses. being cut off from the OEM and mainstream suppliers, PN will be forced into the grey market. The few brokers willing to source properly tagged and in life spares will know they hold a monopoly on your supply line, resulting in price gouging, raping them again. Also, the global pool of tagged, airworthy, used spares are finite. As the commercial fleets age those parts dry up

You also cant shop your way around limits, plane parts will either be time or calender limited, you're not gonna find those on the used market for example, or not particularly easy. So, when you have to look for certain parts like that, and dont have access to the entire supplier pool like we didnt, you end up getting stuck, waiting long times or needing to fit parts that will need to be removed soon again. You cant just wait months hoping and praying a used hpt blade may come up for example. We also dont know who will do the inspections yet, no vendor will touch pak out of fear of losing their approval or relationship with oem. Even more worrying is no service bulletins, airworthiness directives or manuals for support. no software support, yadda yadda, there is a long list of issues that is too much effort to get into

 

[Yasser76]

anyways , i asked AK01 since he is not gonna come here anymore , here is his answer to finally clear things up

The secondary market is not an infinite scrap yard you can just browse at will. Pakistanis can only buy used historically it relies on components backed by FAA 8130-3 or EASA Form 1 release, means ur not just buying them from some tom dick or harry. Reputable suppliers and MROs value their many milly dollar OEM agreements more than a one off sale to a sanctioned operator. Vendors will actively avoid PN out of fear of upsetting Embraer and losing their own approvals and statuses. being cut off from the OEM and mainstream suppliers, PN will be forced into the grey market. The few brokers willing to source properly tagged and in life spares will know they hold a monopoly on your supply line, resulting in price gouging, raping them again. Also, the global pool of tagged, airworthy, used spares are finite. As the commercial fleets age those parts dry up

You also cant shop your way around limits, plane parts will either be time or calender limited, you're not gonna find those on the used market for example, or not particularly easy. So, when you have to look for certain parts like that, and dont have access to the entire supplier pool like we didnt, you end up getting stuck, waiting long times or needing to fit parts that will need to be removed soon again. You cant just wait months hoping and praying a used hpt blade may come up for example. We also dont know who will do the inspections yet, no vendor will touch pak out of fear of losing their approval or relationship with oem. Even more worrying is no service bulletins, airworthiness directives or manuals for support. no software support, yadda yadda, there is a long list of issues that is too much effort to get into

Ah, you asked someone who is banned, i was hoping you could think for yourself here.
Proves my point, lets debate properly when you dont need someone who was banned for foul language. I am not reading his crap, there is a reason is no longer on here, still lurking I see though.

 

[hasssanali8998]

@SteppeWolff why you avoiding us lol

 

[Yasser76]

View attachment 210347



ps dont shoot the messanger people

@Musings @Mr X @Waz

I keep being subject to this, now by someone who claims to just be a messenger.

Have reported this @hasssanali8998 already on this thread and action had to be take for throwing insults around, again a good thread goes to shit, and I try and be civil with this guy....

 

[shark46]

@Musings @Mr X @Waz

I keep being subject to this, now by someone who claims to just be a messenger.

Have reported this @hasssanali8998 already on this thread and action had to be take for throwing insults around, again a good thread goes to shit, and I try and be civil with this guy....

you keep conflating three completely different things here: part traceability, airworthiness approval and OEM commercial support

nobody is arguing that the PN can run around buying random serial numbered components from some boneyard and installing them because they happen to fit. obviously components have to meet the applicable eligibility, traceability, inspection and release requirements and life limited/time controlled items are a completely different problem from ordinary rotable or expendable parts

but none of that establishes your conclusion that pakistan therefore requires embraer itself to supply every replacement part

a used serviceable component does not cease being an aviation component because it came off another aircraft and went through a teardown/MRO chain rather than coming directly from embraer. the whole commercial aviation aftermarket exists precisely because operators routinely source components through OEMs, authorized distributors, independent MROs, teardown operators, parts distributors and approved production/repair sources

and 8130-3 or form 1 isnt some magical embraer permission slip either. those documents establish the relevant release/airworthiness status and traceability of the article under the applicable regulatory framework. they dont mean "this part must have been purchased from the OEM"

your argument is basically

aircraft parts require traceability
therefore pakistan needs embraer

which doesnt logically follow at all

the more interesting issue is actually the long term sustainment architecture. if embraer refuses technical publications, engineering support, software, SB incorporation support, repair capability or access to certain proprietary repairs then yes that creates a sustainment problem. but thats an argument about OEM technical support and fleet availability, not proof that individual commercial spares become unobtainable

same with your russian comparison. russia isnt struggling because western aircraft suddenly forgot how to have serial numbers. they are operating under an actual sanctions regime where manufacturers, suppliers and MROs face legal restrictions on providing aviation support. that is fundamentally different from embraer merely deciding it doesnt want a commercial relationship with a particular military operator

and the "parts dry up" argument also needs some qualification because the E-Jet family has a very large installed base and a substantial commercial aftermarket. obviously the pool of usable donor components isnt infinite and certain LLP/time limited items are much harder to source than generic rotables, but saying "secondary market finite" doesnt prove "OEM support is mandatory"

in fact your entire argument would make no sense for the commercial aviation aftermarket in general because airlines routinely operate aircraft using components that have passed through multiple owners, teardown facilities, repair stations and distributors without the OEM personally selling every individual component to the final operator

so yes, OEM support is obviously preferable and would make life considerably easier

but going from "OEM support is preferable" to "without an embraer deal the sea sultan fleet cannot be sustainably operated" is the part you still havent actually demonstrated

 

[Colt_Six_Nine]

i am not going to reply again as this seems to be circlejerk Arguement, believe what you want , naveed making parts himself or even munir etc etc i dont care

Words spoken at the end of every intellectual conversation. Have a good day, mate.