Setting Sail in the Eastern Mediterranean: A Comparative Analysis of Egyptian MEKO-200EN and Turkish İstif Class Frigates

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Turkiye has its own Naval Industry to be unique in the region


Another Frigate concept work from Turkish defense contractor ASFAT, which is affiliated with the Turkish Ministry of Defense


AS-3600 Frigate

124 meters long
14.42 meters wide
displacement of about 3680 tons

1 x MKE 76mm Naval Gun

64 cells MIDLAS VLS to carry mix of
-- 128 x HISAR-D SAMs 40+ km
-- 32 x SIPER SAMs 100+ km

1 x LEVENT Air Defense System ( 21 x SAMs ) 11 km
1 x GOKDENIZ 35 mm CIWS

8 x ATMACA anti-ship Missiles
6 x ORKA Torpedos

1 AS-3600 Frigate has more fire power than 4 Egyptian MEKO-A200 Frigates in Air Defense role

ASFAT showcases heavily armed AS3600 frigate at IDEF 2023 - Naval News

Turkish defense contractor ASFAT, which is affiliated with the Turkish Ministry of Defense, unveiled a new frigate design called the "AS3600" at the IDEF 2023 defense exhibition held last week in Istanbul.

www.navalnews.com

-- 8 ISTIF class Frigates to replace 4 YAVUZ ( MEKO-200 ) and 4 OHP Frigates
-- 4 modernized BARBAROS class Frigates ( MEKO 200 TN Track II-A/B ) will remain in service

-- Maybe 4 AS-3600 Frigates will replace 4 GABYA class Frigates ( modernized OHP Frigates )

 

[Foinikas]

Another Frigate concept work from Turkish defense contractor ASFAT, which is affiliated with the Turkish Ministry of Defense


AS-3600 Frigate

It's not out yet.

 

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It's not out yet.

That doesn't matter ... sooner or later will be realized
Turkiye has its own naval industry and technological capability to develop and produce Frigates and Destroyer


Your Greece is still waiting for 3 FDI Frigates from France while 3 Turkish ISTIF class Frigates under construction at the same time in 3 different Shipyards

and Turkiye increased number of ISTIF class Frigates to 8 from 4

also TF-2000 class Destroyer construction start in 2025

 

[Foinikas]

That doesn't matter ... sooner or later will be realized
Turkiye has its own naval industry and technological capability to develop and produce Frigates and Destroyer


Your Greece is still waiting for 3 FDI Frigates from France while 3 Turkish ISTIF class Frigates under construction at the same time in 3 different Shipyards

and Turkiye increased number of ISTIF class Frigates to 8 from 4

also TF-2000 class Destroyer construction start in 2025

Yes.that is a big problem. However,all three of our FDI HN frigates are under construction at the same time.

If Turkey increases the number to 8,that will take time. It is logical,if Turkey wants to retire some of the older ships for example the Gabya class. The construction of the TF-2000 is another big problem if the Turkish Navy begins construction in 2025.

So far our government hasn't shown maturity in providing the Navy with extra funds to finally modernize the Navy and get rid of some 12-15 ships and 4 submarines. They keep trying to find a solution by adding a bit of this,maybe upgrading a bit of that,asking for free ships,trying to find any good used ones like the ANZAC from Australia...

Everybody is enraged here. The people who are into defence and geopolitics I mean.

 

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If Turkey increases the number to 8,that will take time. It is logical,if Turkey wants to retire some of the older ships for example the Gabya class. The construction of the TF-2000 is another big problem if the Turkish Navy begins construction in 2025.

1 ISTIF class Frigate TCG ISTANBUL enter service in the next a few weeks
more 3 ISTIF Frigates will be delivered to the Turkish Navy until 2027
and total of 8 ISTIF Frigates will be delivered to the Turkish Navy until 2030

Also 10 HISAR class OPVs armed with 76mm gun , 8 x HISAR-D SAMs , 8 x ATMACA anti-ship Missiles ,
1 x GOKDENIZ 35mm CIWS and ASW Rockets as like ADA class Corvette

 

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So far our government hasn't shown maturity in providing the Navy with extra funds to finally modernize the Navy and get rid of some 12-15 ships and 4 submarines. They keep trying to find a solution by adding a bit of this,maybe upgrading a bit of that,asking for free ships,trying to find any good used ones like the ANZAC from Australia...

Ony 3 FDI Frigates .... nothing else
Hellenic Navy needs more 20 new Platforms to match with 31+8 new Platforms for the Turkish Navy .... apparently Greece can't do that

Greece focused on Air Force
but when KAAN , KIZILELMA , ANKA-3 enter service and 270 F-16 Block70 modernization until 2030 then Greece will not be able to gain air superiority too

 

[Foinikas]

1 ISTIF class Frigate TCG ISTANBUL enter service in the next a few weeks

Yes,the one that you've been talking to us about for 3 years. ISTIF this,ISTIF that and it's still not in service. It was undergoing trials. It's understandable. She's the first of the class,although ISTIF is more or less a bigger Ada ship. But anyway,yes. You could have avoided mentioning ISTIF class every time and waited until it gets in service.

And another big problem if the Turkish Navy begins construction of the TF-2000 in 2025 ?
what about for example ?

It's a big problem for us,because we're already behind.

You see,we were supposed to replace the Kortenaer (the Elli-class) with 6 FREMM back in 2009. Then the economic crisis started and the Germans wouldn't let us buy any. During the last 12-15 years,the we've also had the problems with the shipyards,which delivered the last two Roussen Class (Super Vita) FAC late.

So in 2019 when New Democracy got elected,the situation was this:

• We needed to retire 9 Kortenaer frigates
• We needed to modernize the 4 MEKO 200HN (Hydra class)
• We wanted to retire some or all of the 12 La Combattante FAC. If we kept the Combattante IIIb,we would have to retire 7 ships (the IIIa and IIa classes).
• I read rumors somewhere that we wanted to retire 2 gunboats,so I guess it's the Asheville class
• We needed to retire the 4 Type 209 submarines (Glavkos class or Type 209/1100 and Poseidon class or Type 209/1200). At the same time,some said we should upgrade our 4 Type 214.

So the government put out a frigate program for which we wanted:

4 new frigates
2 interim solution ships(frigates mostly)
The modernization of the 4 MEKO 200HN

After 2 years of a crazy negotiations and checking out each proposal in an epic that was dubbed in greek defence sites as the "Fregatiada" or "Frigatiad",the government decided to order 3+1 FDI HN from France. You know that.

After the deal was signed,we wanted 3+1 corvettes as well. The best proposals were of France with the Gowind HN and Italy with the FCX-30 or Doha class.

And here's the problem. The government had given the Navy a 5 billion euro budget for the above. So the money was not enough. It wasn't nearly enough to cover the corvettes and the modernization of the MEKO 200HN,you can imagine it wasn't enough to reconstruct the entire Hellenic Navy that was abandoned for 15 years.

In 2023,after New Democracy got re-elected,they suddenly go heavily pro-American. They stop trying to get a 4th FDI HN,they freeze the corvette program,they can't make progress with the MEKO 200HN upgrade,they don't try to order new submarines.

The Americans push for LCS. We inspect some of them and demand they are free of charge. Even then,we'll probably need to pay a lot of money to get some good equipment on them. At the same,the new MoD is constantly talking about building the Constellation class with the Americans and getting 7 or 8 Constellation frigates from 2030 onwards.

You can see why people are frustrated now. Because the Hellenic Navy,undefeated in battles,has been abandoned by the politicians,their mistakes and their corruption.

 

[Foinikas]

Greece focused on Air Force
but when KAAN , KIZILELMA , ANKA-3 enter service and 270 F-16 Block70 modernization until 2030 then Greece will not be able to gain air superiority too

That's another problem. Until now,we had air superiority with the 24 Rafale and all the F-16Vs we have as well.

However,the Americans' giving the F-16Vs to Turkey has changed the balance again. And the current government is obsessed with getting F-35s. They announced that the deal for 20 F-35s will cost about 3,7 billion euros with everything included.

HOWEVER...what makes a lot of people wonder,is if the Americans will include modern missiles and targeting pods as well. Because what good is having F-16Vs and an F-35s if the Americans don't give you AIM-120C8 or C9,the new HARM and the new Harpoon and the latest modern weapons available for allies. That's what makes a lot of people say "We should just go for a full squadron of Rafale F4 instead".

 

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Yes,the one that you've been talking to us about for 3 years. ISTIF this,ISTIF that and it's still not in service. It was undergoing trials. It's understandable. She's the first of the class,although ISTIF is more or less a bigger Ada ship. But anyway,yes. You could have avoided mentioning ISTIF class every time and waited until it gets in service.

Our NATO allies İmposed embargo on Turkiye and we lost 3 years

in finaly , Turkish Defense companies developed indigenous systems to break embargo
-- MKE 76 mm naval gun
-- GOKDENIZ 35 mm CIWS
-- HISAR-D SAM
-- ATMACA anti-ship Missile
-- CENK AESA Radar
-- MIDLAS VLS

Now TCG ISTANBUL Frigate is combat ready to enter service

 

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In the last 15 years, a total of 62 modern ships have been taken into Turkish Navy’s inventory. Forget about Greece, even Western European militaries couldn't keep up with Türkiye's modernization drive.

There are four aspects that are holding the Greeks backs:

1. No political and societal willingness to change

2. Relying on 'allies' aka foreign states

3. No industrial and technological foundation

4. Lack of young and skilled workers

Literally, they cannot find enough people for their military let alone qualified college graduates to build some meaningful industrial capabilities.

 

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And here's the problem. The government had given the Navy a 5 billion euro budget for the above. So the money was not enough. It wasn't nearly enough to cover the corvettes and the modernization of the MEKO 200HN,you can imagine it wasn't enough to reconstruct the entire Hellenic Navy that was abandoned for 15 years.

Greece has small economy with $250 billion of GDP

Greece never can match with Turkiye in arms race
so Greece should abandon this arm race and follow rational policy

Turkiye increased defense budget to $38 billion from $16 billion for 2024
even Turkiye spends less on military relative to the GDP to compare with Greece

You can see why people are frustrated now. Because the Hellenic Navy,undefeated in battles,has been abandoned by the politicians,their mistakes and their corruption.

Greece lack money now ... and Money = POWER

maybe 20 years ago Greece could survive economically in the arms race against Turkiye
But now everything has changed

in 2002 Greece had $154 billion of GDP while Turkiye had $230 billion of GDP
Now Greece has $250 billion of GDP and Turkiye has $1.113 trillion of GDP

This difference will further increase in favor of Turkiye by 2030


Also Turkiye created its own Defense Industry
We obtain weapons for cheaper price by not importing them

 

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That's another problem. Until now,we had air superiority with the 24 Rafale and all the F-16Vs we have as well.

Still You have no air superiority
24 RAFALE can not change balance of power but gives some tactical advantage to Hellenic Air Force

 

[Foinikas]

1. No political and societal willingness to change

That is very correct. Politicians that are usually in power,are the typical "neutral" type with no real ideology. Not just centrists,they are more like "professional politicians" let's say. They see this as a profession. Not in order to do something,but as a type of marketing,to blabber about "achievements",while trying to get more votes.
And the society part that you mentioned is the one that has been traditionally voting for one party and no matter what happens,they will still vote for that party. No matter what you tell these people,they will end up voting the same guy,the same party.

2. Relying on 'allies' aka foreign states

Unfortunately,the New Democracy governments of 2019 up to now have been babbling about "Building strong alliances",while the people and the defence experts and geopolitical analysts in Greece know that in case of a war,we shouldn't expect any real help from anyone else,unless their own interests are threatened as well if Greece is attacked by someone.

3. No industrial and technological foundation

There is and especially in the defence sector,however it has been either ignored because of incompetence or shut down because of interests. That is one of our biggest problems. From the late '70s to the early 2000s,we had a very good defence industry and excellent shipyards. What happened? Governments didn't help the indigenous tries to flourish,they mysteriously didn't support significant projects. Eventually,the mismanagement of the shipyards and economic crisis,had the paradox of a traditionally maritime nation like Greece to be left without active shipyards.

4. Lack of young and skilled workers

There's no lack of skilled workers. There's lack of interest in paying them well,by the government. That's another example why many bright young men left the country. Some are coming back,but we need to start paying people well in order for them to stay.

Greece never can match with Turkiye in arms race
so Greece should abandon this arm race and follow rational policy

Listen,we cannot "follow rational policy" meaning be friends with Turkey and disarm or whatever as long as Turkey claims half the Aegean along with islands,won't let us take advantage of our own EEZ and will not even allow the Cypriots to drill in their own EEZ.

Basically,as long as Turkey continues to be a threat,we cannot afford to not try and have a purely defensive army. It is crazy. No country would do that.

This difference will further increase in favor of Turkiye by 2030

This,you don't know. Because Turkey's exports might be good and the State might be making big money now,but the Turkish people are suffering because of the inflation and crazy economics policies of Erdogan. If Turkey keeps spending so much money in building and buying countless weapons,it will implode. As in,the economy might collapse or the people themselves might rise up. Turkey has been arming like crazy,as if it's preparing for some massive invasion by hordes of Americans or Chinese or whatever. It's disproportionate and it creates problems to the economy as well.

 

[Foinikas]

Still You have no air superiority
24 RAFALE can not change balance of power but gives some tactical advantage to Hellenic Air Force

Right now we do have air superiority.

We have:

• 24 Rafale F3R
• 17 F-16V
• 24 Mirage 2000-5 Mk II
• The rest of the F-16 Block 30/50/52+/52+ Advanced

I won't count the Phantom,because we both have Phantom and we know they're not frontline stuff.

So yes,right now we still have air superiority. You haven't received the F-16Vs from USA and you haven't started the Ozgur upgrade yet.

 

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Basically,as long as Turkey continues to be a threat,we cannot afford to not try and have a purely defensive army. It is crazy. No country would do that.

Waste of money .. nothing else
Nothing can protect Greece except rational policy

This,you don't know. Because Turkey's exports might be good and the State might be making big money now,but the Turkish people are suffering because of the inflation and crazy economics policies of Erdogan. If Turkey keeps spending so much money in building and buying countless weapons,it will implode. As in,the economy might collapse or the people themselves might rise up. Turkey has been arming like crazy,as if it's preparing for some massive invasion by hordes of Americans or Chinese or whatever. It's disproportionate and it creates problems to the economy as well.

Turkiye doesnt spend huge money on defense
The volume of Turkish military projects is $75 billion while Turkish Airlines buys 350 new Planes for $70 billion


Defense expenditures of NATO countries as a percentage of GDP in 2023

Poland 3.9%
USA 3,5%
Greece 3.01%
The UK 2.07%
France 1,9%
Turkiye 1,31%

We must further increase our military budget
Because a Country such as TURKIYE has military bases in many countries and carries out military operations on 3 continents against multinational alliance


btw high inflation has nothing to do with the Turkish economy, some wrong policies increased inflation.