Tang dynasty battles with the caliphate

[retaxis]

There were two primary battles between the two sides whom were both expanding in the same direction.

The first battle aka battle of aksu resultted in heavy casualties and defeat of the caliphate:

Battle of Aksu (717) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The second battle was the battle of talas resulted in victory of the caliphate when the Turks whom were on the Tangs side switched sides in the middle of the battle betraying their alliegance to the Tang

Battle of Talas - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Neither side progressed much further because soon after both sides faced tremendous internal issues.

 

[Master Chief]

An interesting period of history.

N.B. technically, two different caliphates.

 

[Indos]

Beside it makes Central Asian + Turkiye (and Balkan) become Muslim, I think this is also important battle that makes Pakistan and Bangladesh become Muslim later on + creating 200 million Muslim inside India.

 

[retaxis]

Beside it makes Central Asian + Turkiye (and Balkan) become Muslim, I think this is also important battle that makes Pakistan and Bangladesh become Muslim later on

Yes it huge role in spreading islam in central asia for sure.

Many Chinese muslims also spread islam to south east asia as well.

 

[Indos]

Yes it huge role in spreading islam in central asia for sure.

Many Chinese muslims also spread islam to south east asia as well.

Exactly, I think it is also good outcome to tame Mongolian

 

[retaxis]

Exactly, I think it is also good outcome to tame Mongolian

Yes it also gave Turks independence after their betrayal. Before they were conquered by emperor taizong, so it is only natural they wanted their own land. Tang were just too stupid to realise this.

 

[Indos]

Yes it also gave Turks independence after their betrayal. Before they were conquered by emperor taizong, so it is only natural they wanted their own land. Tang were just too stupid to realise this.

Not only that, it then make both Muslim powers and China become friend right for hundred years and silk road created to open trade betwen them then sea route is also created that makes Malacca Strait very important and it is the main reason for Indonesia, Malaysia, Southern Thailand, and also large part of Philippine become Muslim ( Manila comes from Arabic words).

 

[retaxis]

Yes it also gave Turks independence after their betrayal. Before they were conquered by emperor taizong, so it is only natural they wanted their own land. Tang were just too stupid to realise this.

The Turkish betrayal cut deep because for over 100 years the Turks assimilated into China and even gave chinese emperor the title of khan of heaven.

"Khan of Heaven" (or Tian Kehan, Chinese: 天可汗) was a prestigious political and religious title given to Emperor Taizong of Tang (Li Shimin) on May 20, 630 AD by various nomadic Turkic tribes after he defeated the Eastern Turkic Khaganate. [1, 2, 3, 4]
This unique title effectively made him the joint ruler of both the settled Chinese farming population and the nomadic steppe tribes. [1, 2, 3]

Historical Significance & Meaning

• Dual Legitimacy: The title cleverly merged the Chinese concept of the "Son of Heaven" (Tianzi) with the nomadic Central Asian title of "Khagan" (ruler), creating a hybrid identity that appealed to both worlds. [1, 2, 3]
• Equality of Subjects: Emperor Taizong famously used this status to claim that he treated nomadic tribes and Chinese subjects equally, welcoming foreign generals, officials, and soldiers into the Tang court. [1]
• Precedent of Power: It symbolised the peak of the Tang Dynasty's "cosmopolitan" era, bridging the Great Wall to build a multi-ethnic empire. [1, 2]
• Succession: The title was passed down to his imperial successors—including China's only female emperor, Wu Zetian—and remained in use until roughly 779 AD. [1]

 

[Indos]

An interesting period of history.

N.B. technically, two different caliphates.

Caliphate is just Arabic name, where first four Caliphs that are choosen and elected by the people (Abu Bakr, Umar, Ustman, Ali) are now considered as President, while later Caliphate are Kingdoms

 

[ety]

Yes it also gave Turks independence after their betrayal. Before they were conquered by emperor taizong, so it is only natural they wanted their own land. Tang were just too stupid to realise this.

The loss of the battle of Talas triggered one of the biggest and bloodiest rebellions namely The An Shi Rebellion in Chinese history. It destroyed the High Tang golden age, resulted in catastrophic of destructions, permanently weakened the central imperial government and started the decline of Chinese civilization for more than a thousand years. You are right, Tang emperors and generals shouldn't trusted the Turks.

 

[retaxis]

The loss of the battle of Talas triggered one of the biggest and bloodiest rebellions namely The An Shi Rebellion in Chinese history. It destroyed the High Tang golden age, resulted in catastrophic of destructions, permanently weakened the central imperial government and started the decline of Chinese civilization for more than a thousand years. You are right, Tang emperors and generals shouldn't trusted the Turks.

Yes he himself was a Turk Chinese who seeked to become emperor of China.

 

[retaxis]

The loss of the battle of Talas triggered one of the biggest and bloodiest rebellions namely The An Shi Rebellion in Chinese history. It destroyed the High Tang golden age, resulted in catastrophic of destructions, permanently weakened the central imperial government and started the decline of Chinese civilization for more than a thousand years. You are right, Tang emperors and generals shouldn't trusted the Turks.

Had China not been betrayed by the Turks (who seeked their own independence), Central Asia would have been sinicized. Perhaps China would of course lose it again at some stage but its impact would have stuck around.

 

[Master Chief]

Had China not been betrayed by the Turks (who seeked their own independence), Central Asia would have been sinicized. Perhaps China would of course lose it again at some stage but its impact would have stuck around.

Interesting. A bit later down the road in 1200-1300...The Mongol rise under Genghis and his progeny probably also took advantage of the fractured states of both Chinese and regional Islamic (both khwarazmian and abbasid) empires at that time.

I don't know if there was particular hostility between the Chinese and the Muslim empires at that particular time, but certainly, had they had some foresight to predict the growing threat from Karakorum, they could have allied. Then, the mongols could arguably have been controlled by an alliance of the two (or two of three, as asiatic Muslims were two distinct groups by then) powers.

 

[retaxis]

Interesting. A bit later down the road in 1200-1300...The Mongol rise under Genghis and his progeny probably also took advantage of the fractured states of both Chinese and regional Islamic (both khwarazmian and abbasid) empires at that time.

I don't know if there was particular hostility between the Chinese and the Muslim empires at that particular time, but certainly, had they had some foresight to predict the growing threat from Karakorum, they could have allied. Then, the mongols could arguably have been controlled by an alliance of the two (or two of three, as asiatic Muslims were two distinct groups by then) powers.

Yeah china has long history of Islam so there was never any hostility with Islamic states because china itself always had a lot of muslims too.

When the mongols arrived, the southern Chinese allied themselves with the Mongol to attack the jurchens who had taken northern china. Back then china was 4 countries and warred among each other never treating Mongols as a threat just hired mercenaries. If china and Islamic States worked together or if china was not so divided, mongols would have never broken through.

Mongols used a lot of Chinese tactics and siege equipment to take cities and castles. China always treated the jurchens/Manchurian as a far greater threat then mongols and that just backfired badly. Muslim states would have done well against mongols too but they were also divided.