TF-X / KAAN / Hürjet Turkish Fighter & Trainer Aircrafts News & Discussions

[hyperman]

If we request the WS-10 engine from China, they will sell it. Turkey is an important country for China in the region

Of course they will sell(maybe not their latest and best, but anything comparable to the F110s like the WS-10B, and Turkey doesn't need anything more than that, it just needs a stopgap like the AL-31 was for the J-20s). They agreed to sell HQ-9s in a $3.4 Billion agreement to Turkey in 2013, before it was cancelled under US pressure.

Missile sale to Turkey confirmed - China - Chinadaily.com.cn

China confirms an agreement to sell the HQ-9 air defense missile system to Turkey on Tuesday, during an exhibition in Malaysia.

www.chinadaily.com.cn

Turkey cancels $3.4B missile deal with China to launch own project

Turkey cancelled the long-range missile defense system contract to build its own system despite previously announcing China as a possible partner

www.dailysabah.com

These guys are acting like an engine is more closely guarded thing than an Air Defense system like an HQ-9.

Sometimes these guys speak like they are speaking on behalf of the Chinese Politoboro or something in saying China would never sell to Turkey, b/c hurr durr "TuRkeY Is NaTo", like if thats the depth of the analysis they have, then they don't seem to understand that Turkey is not a normal NATO state(if it was, then this whole F110 issue wouldn't even be getting discussed), Neither the US nor Russia or China for that matter view Turkey as a NATO state in the same way they view other NATO states, they are willing to cooperate with Turkey on things, they don't do for other states, the S-400s and the HQ-9s are the best example of that phenomena.

 

[Ak01]

EF200 is too underpowered to be used in Kaan, that much is clear.

not necessarily-

EJ200's core has room for growth, there was a development plan to uprate it by 30%, producing 78kN dry, 12X kN wet.

I do think the EJ200 is probably a better option for Kaan. Heck, i wish we would have gone all in on EJ200 for JF-17 too! Its a far more compact engine which would be handy for increasing bay size/fuel payload too

 

[hyperman]

Military, economic, and diplomatic issues are three separate issues. At least, they are separate issues in China.

I don't want to comment on China-Turkish relations here.

You can use the China-Indian relationship as an analogy for the China-Turkish relationship. From the Chinese perspective, there are some differences in details, but they are on the same level.

There are many irreconcilable contradictions between China and India, but they also cooperate in many areas. The same is true for China and Türkiye.

India cannot be compared to Turkey with regards to China, its apples and oranges, according to China, India is occupying Chinese territory, no such dispute exists with Turkey.

And we don't need to look at only economic, China sold Turkey missile tech with transfer of technology for ballistic missiles(thats how the Turkish Ballistic missile program started).

China sold HQ-9s to Turkey(which later cancelled it under US pressure), something it would never do with India for obvious reasons.

Missile sale to Turkey confirmed - China - Chinadaily.com.cn

China confirms an agreement to sell the HQ-9 air defense missile system to Turkey on Tuesday, during an exhibition in Malaysia.

www.chinadaily.com.cn

Are HQ-9s less strategic and important/significant to something like the WS-10B? You guys speak as up you are the ones in the politiboro signing the export licenses yourself or something, when saying China would never sell engines(which BTW aren't even China's latest gen engines but older generation).

 

[Anatolia]

Of course they will sell(maybe not their latest and best, but anything comparable to the F110s like the WS-10B, and Turkey doesn't need anything more than that, it just needs a stopgap like the AL-31 was for the J-20s). They agreed to sell HQ-9s in a $3.4 Billion agreement to Turkey in 2013, before it was cancelled under US pressure.

Missile sale to Turkey confirmed - China - Chinadaily.com.cn

China confirms an agreement to sell the HQ-9 air defense missile system to Turkey on Tuesday, during an exhibition in Malaysia.

www.chinadaily.com.cn

Turkey cancels $3.4B missile deal with China to launch own project

Turkey cancelled the long-range missile defense system contract to build its own system despite previously announcing China as a possible partner

www.dailysabah.com

These guys are acting like an engine is more closely guarded thing than an Air Defense system like an HQ-9.

Sometimes these guys speak like they are speaking on behalf of the Chinese Politoboro or something in saying China would never sell to Turkey, b/c hurr durr "TuRkeY Is NaTo", like if thats the depth of the analysis they have, then they don't seem to understand that Turkey is not a normal NATO state(if it was, then this whole F110 issue wouldn't even be getting discussed), Neither the US nor Russia or China for that matter view Turkey as a NATO state in the same way they view other NATO states, they are willing to cooperate with Turkey on things, they don't do for other states, the S-400s and the HQ-9s are the best example of that phenomena.

You @MMM-E even Turkish?
No sane Turk would act like China and Turkiye have problems over NATO membership.
China and Turkiye have issues over treatment of UYGHURS!! Go google it.
You and MMME should stay out of geopolitical discussions with regards to Turkiye since you have no clue what you're talking about,.
China would rather sell Engines to India and Japan than Turkiye. Thats how much love we have for each other. No amount of "oh but Russia and China had issues in past too, look at them now2 is going to change that for goodness sake. Please go learn to accept this and stop making regular Turks look ridiculous.

Its clear you AKP and Pakistanis no nothing about Turks and China relationships and it shows in threads like this. which is fine, but then to act like you all knowing is cringe.

 

[Michael]

India cannot be compared to Turkey with regards to China, its apples and oranges, according to China, India is occupying Chinese territory, no such dispute exists with Turkey.

The issue between China and Türkiye isn't just about NATO; there are other, more serious issues. But this isn't the right place to discuss them. It would only provoke more serious verbal battles. It's pointless.

when saying China would never sell engines(which BTW aren't even China's latest gen engines but older generation).

I've already explained this issue.
WS-10B? It's certainly a possibility. But I don't think Türkiye would be willing to do so.

Adapting modern turbofan engines is no easy task. We also have to provide the turbofan engine's control source code to the KAAN's flight control system developers. Clearly, no one would be willing to undertake this task simply to sell a few dozen engines.
This is a trivial order.

Perhaps Turkey could use its own F-16 engines to temporarily power the KAAN. This would be a more feasible and better approach.

 

[hyperman]

You @MMM-E even Turkish?
No sane Turk would act like China and Turkiye have problems over NATO membership.
China and Turkiye have issues over treatment of UYGHURS!! Go google it.
You and MMME should stay out of geopolitical discussions with regards to Turkiye since you have no clue what you're talking about,.
China would rather sell Engines to India and Japan than Turkiye. Thats how much love we have for each other. No amount of "oh but Russia and China had issues in past too, look at them now2 is going to change that for goodness sake. Please go learn to accept this and stop making regular Turks look ridiculous.

Its clear you AKP and Pakistanis no nothing about Turks and China relationships and it shows in threads like this. which is fine, but then to act like you all knowing is cringe.

Lol, so why did they sell HQ-9s then.

China confirmed agreement to sell missile system to Turkey_China & World_ENG.TAIWAN.CN

A representative of China National Precision Machinery Import &Export Corporation said it was well-known that the Chinese FD-2000 system, a HQ-9 model for export, was chosen for the contract with Turkey in 2013.

eng.taiwan.cn

I mentioned the Uygur issue above, and it not being a significant concern, as they have sold weaponry before in the very first comments I made on the matter. Perhaps its you who doesn't understand the geopolitics, Turkey if you thing there is some sort of signifiant tension with Turkey and China over the Uygurs, while Turkey has granted Uygurs Asylum, like every other country in the Turkic world, it treads carefully with regards to China on that matter, and doesn't purposely inflame the issue. You can see that with the visit of Hakan Fidan to Xinjiang just last year.

Don't accuse others of not knowing geopolitics when you yourself are not privy to the subtleties of the relations.

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They sold HQ-9s in 2013 to Turkey, they signed the contract, I also citied Ismael Demir's comments on an agreement with an unnamed country on contingencies, thats my basis for suggesting the potential WS-10.

I know exactly what I'm talking about, confusing twitter sentiment from people talking about Turan and Uygurs is not the basis of Turkish Chinese relations, its a bit more subtle than that. That HQ-9 sale is evidence of that. Why Did China sell HQ-9s? Did you ever wonder? Why did the Uygur issue not come up when selling HQ-9s? The contract was signed before Turkey pulled out.

China confirmed agreement to sell missile system to Turkey_China & World_ENG.TAIWAN.CN

A representative of China National Precision Machinery Import &Export Corporation said it was well-known that the Chinese FD-2000 system, a HQ-9 model for export, was chosen for the contract with Turkey in 2013.

eng.taiwan.cn

Turkey cancels $3.4B missile deal with China to launch own project

Turkey cancelled the long-range missile defense system contract to build its own system despite previously announcing China as a possible partner

www.dailysabah.com

 

[MMM-E]

Are HQ-9s less strategic and important/significant to something like the WS-10B? You guys speak as up you are the ones in the politiboro signing the export licenses yourself or something, when saying China would never sell engines(which BTW aren't even China's latest gen engines but older generation).

They are nothing to say officially something
They are expressing their own wishes and will even be very happy if the KAAN project fails

China can sell 50-100 WS-10B Engines to Turkiye as like HQ-9 Air Defense System

You and MMME should stay out of geopolitical discussions with regards to Turkiye since you have no clue what you're talking about,.
China would rather sell Engines to India and Japan than Turkiye.

Then go and sell HQ-9 Air Defense System to India or Japan
China can not sell even a pistol to India and Japan

 

[hyperman]

Perhaps Turkey could use its own F-16 engines to temporarily power the KAAN. This would be a more feasible and better approach.

Thats exactly what Turkey is doing, the whole reason the WS-10 issue was discussed is with regards to hypothetical contingencies, based on statements made by Ismael Demir.

There are no active discussions with China over a sale of engines, as in all likelyhood, Turkey will not need Chinese engines, as afterwards news came out that the F404s were approved, and now people are assuming F110s will be approved as well. The hypotheticals being discussed are just that hypotheticals around contingencies.

The issue between China and Türkiye isn't just about NATO; there are other, more serious issues. But this isn't the right place to discuss them. It would only provoke more serious verbal battles. It's pointless.

Would you like to comment on why China signed a contract to sell HQ-9s to Turkey?

China confirmed agreement to sell missile system to Turkey_China & World_ENG.TAIWAN.CN

A representative of China National Precision Machinery Import &Export Corporation said it was well-known that the Chinese FD-2000 system, a HQ-9 model for export, was chosen for the contract with Turkey in 2013.

eng.taiwan.cn

forget the WS-10s, first we discuss the HQ-9s with you and you explain why China did what it did, and then we can discuss the difference between selling HQ-9s and selling previous generation engines to Turkey off the shelf.

 

[Ali_Baba]

not necessarily-

EJ200's core has room for growth, there was a development plan to uprate it by 30%, producing 78kN dry, 12X kN wet.

I do think the EJ200 is probably a better option for Kaan. Heck, i wish we would have gone all in on EJ200 for JF-17 too! Its a far more compact engine which would be handy for increasing bay size/fuel payload too

I did try and find out the upgradation of the EJ200 core but have not found anything, i thought they might also do it as part of the first engine for GCAP/Tempest, to de-risk that programmes risk from the new variable cycle engine they are developing for it as well which carries alot of risk with it. The Tempest demonstrator will fly with the EJ200 engine in 2027 though.

 

[MMM-E]

The issue between China and Türkiye isn't just about NATO; there are other, more serious issues. But this isn't the right place to discuss them. It would only provoke more serious verbal battles. It's pointless.

There is no any big issue between Turkiye and China

Chinese President Xi Jinping: 01.09.2025

China and Turkiye are emerging major powers with a spirit of independence and important members of the Global South.

The two countries should take their strategic cooperation to a new level and work together to build a more just and equitable global governance system.



01.09.2025
Message from Russia to Turkiye : There are no limits to military cooperation with Türkiye!

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[Merzifonlu]

Perhaps Turkey could use its own F-16 engines to temporarily power the KAAN. This would be a more feasible and better approach.

Implementing what you're suggesting is impossible for three reasons. First, it's legally impossible. You can't remove those engines without USA permission. Otherwise, you'll get into trouble with the World Trade Organization and NATO, not to mention the USA. Second, the engines used in the Kaan are not the same as those in the F-16s. There are both software and structural differences. Third, you'd have to destroy two F-16s to build one Kaan. In that case, you'd have serious problems closing off national airspace.

If GE F110 engines can't be procured, the only solution I can see, as I mentioned above, is to use the immature TF35000 engine with two-thirds of the target thrust and accept all potential risks (i.e., the loss of fighter and pilot) in advance.

To minimize risks, these first-block Kaan aircraft can mostly be flown unmanned, along with KE and Anka-3 drones.

Oh, and by the way, I agree with you 100% on one thing. China won't sell us military turbofan engines. Because, in the current global political climate, such a sale offers little benefit to China but carries significant risks.

 

[Anatolia]

Lol, so why did they sell HQ-9s then.

We're discussing about engines here, are we not?

I mentioned the Uygur issue above, and it not being a significant concern, as they have sold weaponry before in the very first comments I made on the matter.

Where? I quoted your last message about "Hurr it must be about NATO why Chinese members don't want engines sold to us. and I am pointing out it's nothing to do with NATO. please learn to read.

Perhaps its you who doesn't understand the geopolitics, Turkey if you thing there is some sort of signifiant tension with Turkey and China over the Uygurs,

I am not the one pretending that Turkiye and China are buddies that would sell us engines , am I?
The Chinese believe we help ETIM, doesn't matter if true or not, so for them selling us any engines that would benefit TR is not going to happen, whats so difficult to understand?

it treads carefully with regards to China on that matter, and doesn't purposely inflame the issue. You can see that with the visit of Hakan Fidan to Xinjiang just last year.

Whats that got to do with engines being sold by China to TR? this is not going to ever happen. I am willing to have a bet with you. lol

Don't accuse others of not knowing geopolitics when you yourself are not privy to the subtleties of the relations.

I can read the room. China won't want to lend any help to TR with engines.. its different to selling tomatoes and rice lol.

I know exactly what I'm talking about, confusing twitter sentiment from people talking about Turan and Uygurs is not the basis of Turkish Chinese relations,

Does not matter if its twitter talk or real. what matters is what China believes.

That HQ-9 sale is evidence of that.

How many times you going to mention this? This is the ONLY military asset sold by China yes? I am too lazy to google, but pretty sure it is, but happy to be wrong lol. but point still stands.

 

[hyperman]

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If F404s are approved, I think the F110s will be approved as well. We are all discussing hypotheticals from a previous story over a Hakan Fidan comment.

Since the F404 news has come out, I don't think we need to waste time with discussing hypothetical power plant contingencies, in all likelihood the F110s will be approved as well. So I think it would be better if we stick to the Hurjet and KAAN news, instead of going back and forth over WS-10s.

 

[Ak01]

I did try and find out the upgradation of the EJ200 core but have not found anything, i thought they might also do it as part of the first engine for GCAP/Tempest, to de-risk that programmes risk from the new variable cycle engine they are developing for it as well which carries alot of risk with it. The Tempest demonstrator will fly with the EJ200 engine in 2027 though.

as with most euro def projects, its probably waiting for someone to commit to it. RR offered the EJ200 upg to India for AMCA

 

[MMM-E]

If GE F110 engines can't be procured, the only solution I can see, as I mentioned above, is to use the immature TF35000 engine with two-thirds of the target thrust and accept all potential risks (i.e., the loss of fighter and pilot) in advance.

We don't have time to wait for 7-8 years
Indigenous Engine can not be ready for mass production before 2032

Greece gets 20 F-35A between 2028 and 2030
We needs at least 20 KAAN until 2029

Third, you'd have to destroy two F-16s to build one Kaan. In that case, you'd have serious problems closing off national airspace.

I prefer 1 KAAN instead of 4 F-16
KAAN is a stealth platform and easly can beat all 4,5th gen Fighters F-15EX , F-16V , RAFALE , J-10C , etc in BVR combat

Even the KIZILELMA can perform the F-16's missions
We urgently needs KAAN