TF-X / KAAN / Hürjet Turkish Fighter & Trainer Aircrafts News & Discussions

[MMM-E]

However, economic relations between countries are reciprocal. Turkey has also benefited significantly from China's Belt and Road Initiative. If it severs these ties, it would also suffer greatly

Turkiye doesnt need to earn a few hundred million of Dollars from OBOR project
China will earn hundreds of billions of Dollars from OBOR project via Turkic States including Turkiye

but Turkiye can not get even 50-100 old technology WS-10B Engines from China
This is not a win-win concept

However, China has other options.

Alternative trade route ( Russian route) between the EU and China, now faces hurdles as a result of Western sanctions.


Only option by Sea ( 3 months ) instead of Middle Corridor via Turkiye to Europe ( 15 days )

 

[Michael]

Thats exactly what Turkey is doing, the whole reason the WS-10 issue was discussed is with regards to hypothetical contingencies, based on statements made by Ismael Demir.
......
Would you like to comment on why China signed a contract to sell HQ-9s to Turkey?

You're completely confusing two things. Exporting a complete system and providing core component adaptation services to other countries are two completely different matters.

If Turkey wishes, China could export J-10CE fighter jets to Turkey and equip them with WS-10B spare engines. This poses no problem for China.

However, China will not provide WS-10B+KAAN matching services simply to sell dozens of WS-10B engines. Whether Turkey has the capability to privately modify the system is a question. China will not allow Türkiye to do so privately.

Implementing what you're suggesting is impossible for three reasons. First, it's legally impossible. You can't remove those engines without USA permission. Otherwise, you'll get into trouble with the World Trade Organization and NATO, not to mention the USA. Second, the engines used in the Kaan are not the same as those in the F-16s. There are both software and structural differences. Third, you'd have to destroy two F-16s to build one Kaan. In that case, you'd have serious problems closing off national airspace.

All fighter jets are equipped with spare engines. Using these spare engines alone does not require dismantling existing fighter jets.

For the specific process, please refer to the story I mentioned earlier about China's J-20 using the AL-31 engine.

Of course, if Türkiye still cares about the US's feelings at this point, then ignore what I said.

Oh, and by the way, I agree with you 100% on one thing. China won't sell us military turbofan engines. Because, in the current global political climate, such a sale offers little benefit to China but carries significant risks.

If it's just a few dozen WS-10B engines, then this isn't really possible.

But if it's hundreds of WS-10B engines, then both sides could potentially negotiate. From there, it all comes down to the bargaining chips each side has.

 

[hyperman]

You're completely confusing two things. Exporting a complete system and providing core component adaptation services to other countries are two completely different matters.

If Turkey wishes, China could export J-10CE fighter jets to Turkey and equip them with WS-10B spare engines. This poses no problem for China.

However, China will not provide WS-10B+KAAN matching services simply to sell dozens of WS-10B engines. Whether Turkey has the capability to privately modify the system is a question. China will not allow Türkiye to do so privately.

Lets assume an order for 50-100 engines for 25-50 jets, why would that be an insignificant amount?

Fighter jets are usually sold with Spare engines regardless, even if someone bought J-10Cs they would be sold Spare engines alongside for reasons regarding maintenance and fleet continuity. Thats a common thing with fighter jet sales. Why would engines by themselves be an issue to sell?

If the issue is someone getting proprietary data from engine sales, the risk is the same with one selling the plane + spare engines, so that rationale doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Eşbah]

They could start renegotiation with RR. Or get back to US with some big concessions. However I don't see TF35000 failing. They already invested billions into KAAN program. It might get delayed but won't be abandoned.

I really like reading your posts. You're one of the few people who always seem to keep the "big picture" in mind and consider it before giving an analysis of the situation. That's something to be praised and is becoming rarer these days.

You're correct, the Brits left not because of Qatari involvement. That's an argument that Kemalists like to use, but the reality is that even a CHP-led government in Ankara would have tried to get them on board to significantly reduce the costs.

RR pulled out because Ankara was adamant about IP rights, meaning they wanted to export KAAN completely freely without any outside influence and gain R&D. Naturally, the British didn't agree to these terms. I wouldn't either. Many of Turkey's foreign weapon deals, like the Patriot AD or even the F35 project, fall apart not because the West doesn't want to sell to us, but rather because our government demands strategic and tactical independence.

What I'm trying to say is: you're right. They would have sold us an engine yesterday if we had accepted the conditions that came with it. The KAAN project cannot and will not be dropped, but a delay could happen. However, as of now, the project is still on schedule.

Not sure but was it you who said in some other place that KAAN won't fly in 2023? Let's wait and see.

He is well-known for consistently underestimating Türkiye in various online communities and forums across the internet; kind of a celebrity at this point. This attitude comes from his German background. For what it's worth, many Germans still think they are the only ones who can produce cars, weapons, and machinery. The whole German boomer generation continues to believe that China is technologically behind Germany.

Not a single prediction he made - not one! - about the KAAN project has come true, yet he still clings to his point of view, which is: Turks can't build anything.

 

[hyperman]

Regional Muslim nations like Iran and Turkey share a common trait: they lack a clear understanding of their own position, perpetually believing themselves to be central and capable of using the US, Russia, and China as pawns.

The US, Russia, and China must all align with their interests: when they are attacked, these powers should support them; when they need certain technologies, these powers should sell them.

Frog in the well
Overestimate themselves too much

Wut? lol

Who is using anyone as pawns? lol

 

[Eşbah]

Implementing what you're suggesting is impossible for three reasons. First, it's legally impossible. You can't remove those engines without USA permission. Otherwise, you'll get into trouble with the World Trade Organization and NATO, not to mention the USA. Second, the engines used in the Kaan are not the same as those in the F-16s. There are both software and structural differences. Third, you'd have to destroy two F-16s to build one Kaan. In that case, you'd have serious problems closing off national airspace.

If GE F110 engines can't be procured, the only solution I can see, as I mentioned above, is to use the immature TF35000 engine with two-thirds of the target thrust and accept all potential risks (i.e., the loss of fighter and pilot) in advance.

To minimize risks, these first-block Kaan aircraft can mostly be flown unmanned, along with KE and Anka-3 drones.

Oh, and by the way, I agree with you 100% on one thing. China won't sell us military turbofan engines. Because, in the current global political climate, such a sale offers little benefit to China but carries significant risks.

The entire discussion is pointless right now. I can't believe for a moment that the US would actually finally and irreversibly stop the sale of engines. The worst that could happen is they only let Türkiye produce a limited number of engines for Ankara's own needs and prevent any future exports.

No matter the outcome, we must focus on TF35000 with unwavering determination and commitment. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

 

[hyperman]

No matter the outcome, we must focus on TF35000 with unwavering determination and commitment.

exactly, this is Turkey's "moonshot", this project cannot be allowed to fail. It must be realized no matter the cost. B/c it will determine Turkey's sovereignty and ability to act independently, and not reliant on any poles in the coming multipolarity.

If this engine meets requirements, then Turkey will be sovereign in almost all engine tech, outside of Submarine engines and Ship turbines. Turbofans, Turboshafts, turboprops, Turbojets, Turbodiesel aircraft engines, armored vehicle engines, all elements will be sovereign.

 

[Anatolia]

Regional Muslim nations like Iran and Turkey share a common trait: they lack a clear understanding of their own position, perpetually believing themselves to be central and capable of using the US, Russia, and China as pawns.

The US, Russia, and China must all align with their interests: when they are attacked, these powers should support them; when they need certain technologies, these powers should sell them.

Frog in the well
Overestimate themselves too much

I agree with you , a lot of muslim nations have this mentality.
They think because "Oh , USA not nice to us now, we can go get help with China, Russia" and have a lot of weird explanation as to why they'd even be interested , the most used one is "they don't like USA" .

FWIW Turkiye is going indigenous engines for this very reason, so not sure you can accuse us of that. A few members on PDF doesn't represent the whole nation.

 

[Eşbah]

Wut? lol

Who is using anyone as pawns? lol

Don't waste your breath. There isn't a single nation on this whole planet that is as transactional as China - and we have a hell of a lot to offer. It's literally ingrained in their culture, and on top of that, their entire Middle Corridor Project/Silk Road relies on Türkiye as a gateway to Europe. If we block that, their only trade route to Europe is by sea, where the US Navy is waiting for them - and Russia as a land bridge is cut off due to the Ukraine War and won't be reopened anytime soon. They are literally debating to invest 60 Billion USD in Türkiye's infrastructure. One CPEC.

This is why I said what I said. A lot of Chinese netizens unfortunately don't really grasp the complexities of their own foreign policy because the CCP keeps them in the dark about everything. To really understand Sino-Turkish relations, they depend on information from the Turkish side. Once you provide them with info, their Sinocentrism stops them from seeing global relations clearly and accepting ground realities. It does not matter that China basically kickstarted Türkiye's missile program, shares cruical battery technology, invests in automobile, solar and wind power plants in Anatolia and so on.

It reminds me of the situation in the US and among US-Americans, but in many ways, it's even worse in Mainland China.

Having said all of that, the discussion about Chinese engines is premature. Let us wait and see how things unfold.

 

[haelkon]

Regional Muslim nations like Iran and Turkey share a common trait: they lack a clear understanding of their own position, perpetually believing themselves to be central and capable of using the US, Russia, and China as pawns.

The US, Russia, and China must all align with their interests: when they are attacked, these powers should support them; when they need certain technologies, these powers should sell them.

Frog in the well
Overestimate themselves too much

How do you arrive to such generalization about millions of people from a simple discussion about whether China would provide interim engines for the Kaan project? Nothing discussed here is more than speculation. Since when requesting engines is "using the US, Russia, and China as pawns"? You people are behaving as if the sale of an engine is the most important thing in the world.

 

[hyperman]

Spanish press El Universo:

The Spanish Air and Space Force is considering purchasing KAAN fighter jets.

In this way, Spain aims to bridge the interim period with modern Turkish technology until the sixth-generation fighter jet FCAS project is completed.

The aircraft features an elegant and angular design that reduces its radar signature, advanced avionics systems, and superior maneuverability.

KAAN stands out as a success story that proves Turkey's engineering capacity on a global scale.

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If this is true, its HUGE!!

 

[hyperman]

@Merzifonlu

Seems the idea you suggested earlier for an engine that matches the F110 atleast initially is being discussed by more people on twitter, as a stopgap until the TF35000 reaches its full potential.

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Can Türkiye quickly indigenize the F-16 engine, which it previously produced hundreds of under license?

Defense analyst, mechanical engineer Fazıl Altay:

The TF30000 engine, based on the F110, with the same diameter and lower bypass ratio, can be produced within 2 years.The core engine (fan, compressor, turbine) is not redesigned. Only the bypass duct is redesigned. No need for large investment costs or lengthy approval tests.

A Chinese engine wouldn't make us independent either. We need our own TF30000 with 17,500 pounds of dry thrust.

 

[Oublious]

Spanish press El Universo:

The Spanish Air and Space Force is considering purchasing KAAN fighter jets.

In this way, Spain aims to bridge the interim period with modern Turkish technology until the sixth-generation fighter jet FCAS project is completed.

The aircraft features an elegant and angular design that reduces its radar signature, advanced avionics systems, and superior maneuverability.

KAAN stands out as a success story that proves Turkey's engineering capacity on a global scale.

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For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

If this is true, its HUGE!!

That would shake the defence world, could happen nobody did saw them buying Hurjet.

 

[hyperman]

That would shake the defence world, could happen nobody did saw them buying Hurjet.

I hope so, especially with the doomed FCAS.

 

[Merzifonlu]

@Merzifonlu

Seems the idea you suggested earlier for an engine that matches the F110 atleast initially is being discussed by more people on twitter, as a stopgap until the TF35000 reaches its full potential.

I guess I didn't make myself clear to user @MMM-E. Let me clarify my point.

I'm not suggesting, "Let's produce a domestic F110 variant within three years," as this person proposes. We simply don't have the human and financial resources for that, nor will this engine be ready for installation in the Kaan within three years.

My point is different. I'm proposing that we develop the TF35000 to deliver two-thirds of the targeted thrust (24,000 lbf dry thrust, 35,000 lbf wet thrust) by 2029 at the latest, and use this lower-powered TF35000 engine in the Block 10 Kaans. (First 40 Kaan)

If we achieve the targeted thrust for the TF35000 engine by 2033, we’ll start gradually replacing the low-power engines with high-power ones.