TF-X / KAAN / Hürjet Turkish Fighter & Trainer Aircrafts News & Discussions

[Deino]

…
So, let's get back to the GE F110 and TF35000. Forget about the Chinese turbofan engines.

The irony is - and I have been bashed and insulted from the usual suspects so often for saying it; anyway, still once again:

Turkey maybe learns the hard way that trying it the hard way by playing others against each other in an arrogant and nationalistic way while still being deeply dependent on many things, will in the end lead to a failure of the whole program, namely when the US blocks the F110 and and - IMO a highly likely option - the own TF35000 is delayed or even fails, then there is simply NO fall-back option aka a plan B.

 

[Deino]

… namely when the US blocks the F110 and and - IMO a highly likely option - the own TF35000 is delayed or even fails, then there is simply NO fall-back option aka a plan B.

Almost funny, but it seems, I‘m not alone with my opinion:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...r-billions-in-arms-exports-hinge-on-us-engine

The main points:

"Turkey has signaled it is willing to compromise over the Russian S-400 missiles, though it is opposed to abandoning the hardware. Turkey could agree to a technical, joint military mechanism to supervise the missiles."

"The country’s efforts to develop its own high-performance military turbofans have made halting progress, with Tusas Engine Industries’ TF35000 facing snags in making the engine’s combustion chamber, turbine, nozzle, afterburner and exhaust, said the people, asking not to be identified because the topic is sensitive."

“The CAATSA issue is actually a major problem for us,” Although Turkey has assembled high-performance engines and components in the past, the lack of industrial experience in developing every element of such a complex system on its own has slowed the TF35000"

So the domestic engine will certainly not be ready by 2032. And there doesn't seem to be any plan B regarding alternative powerplants. Getting the U.S. to ease up on the export licenses is the only way forward. But as another poster mentioned, Turkey has burned a lot of bridges and has made powerful enemies in Congress.

 

[Afif]

Almost funny, but it seems, I‘m not alone with my opinion:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...r-billions-in-arms-exports-hinge-on-us-engine

The main points:

"Turkey has signaled it is willing to compromise over the Russian S-400 missiles, though it is opposed to abandoning the hardware. Turkey could agree to a technical, joint military mechanism to supervise the missiles."

"The country’s efforts to develop its own high-performance military turbofans have made halting progress, with Tusas Engine Industries’ TF35000 facing snags in making the engine’s combustion chamber, turbine, nozzle, afterburner and exhaust, said the people, asking not to be identified because the topic is sensitive."

“The CAATSA issue is actually a major problem for us,” Although Turkey has assembled high-performance engines and components in the past, the lack of industrial experience in developing every element of such a complex system on its own has slowed the TF35000"

They could start renegotiation with RR. Or get back to US with some big concessions. However I don't see TF35000 failing. They already invested billions into KAAN program. It might get delayed but won't be abandoned.

So the domestic engine will certainly not be ready by 2032. .

Not sure but was it you who said in some other place that KAAN won't fly in 2023? Let's wait and see.

 

[Ali_Baba]

They could start renegotiation with RR. Or get back to US with some big concessions. However I don't see TF35000 failing. They already invested billions into KAAN program. It might get delayed but won't be abandoned.

Too late to get RR involved now, whatever state the project is in, it will have to go on that journey to completion.

The Turkish engine can fail if the design concept itself, or underlying assumptions that are factored into the design itself are wrong. In the case of such engines, it may take 10years to realize you have made a big mistake, esp. in the case of a high end military jet engines, they are expensive projects for a reason as you are dealing with such fine margins between success and failure. Türkiye has enough pedigree in its other engine projects, and with the involvement of Ukraine's engine manufacturer, to have a damn good shot at making their engine a success, but there is still significant jeopardy involved here.

 

[MMM-E]

Forget it already! By 2029, there's a 90% chance we'll get the same thrust as the F-110, reliably, from the TF35000 engine. We'll produce 40 Kaan fighter jets with the "early entry" TF35000. Why should we even bother with foreigners for only 40 Kaan?

You are right ... According to TEI , Turkish Engine is coming as of 2029

Turkiye produced 323 F-110 Engines under license
Turkiye has enough technology and experience to develop its own engine


-------------------------------------

With our experience from F110 FADAC and software, we can produce 30,000 lbf engine in just 3 years.

It has the same diameter and geometry as the F110, but the only difference is the bypass channel, and fuel consumption is 172 kg/h higher at dry thrust.

The combustion end temperature is the same, and there will be no transition to new material technology.

This is the Turkish F110 derivative, a DOMESTIC TURBOFAN that we can rapidly validate and produce in 3 years



In engineering, solutions are endless.

 

[hyperman]

Plain and simple: It won't sell jets to Turkey and especially not WS-10C powered ones since this was the engine others suggested for Kaan. If they would deliver the less-advanced WS-10B is another question (IMO also not) but since someone noted the WS-10C, here I'm almost 100% sure, China won't deliver this engine. Not to Pakistan, not to Turkey ... they also don't deliver J-20!

They were rumored to offer J-10s and J-35s to Egypt. Turkey in the past had signed a deal for the HQ-9 before it was cancelled under US pressure, and Turkey bought Ballistic Missile tech transfer from China in the past. If they were willing to sell Air defense stuff, whats the big deal in selling off the shelf engines, no tech transfer or anything, just an engine sale. China has been courting Turkey as part of BRICS and investing in Battery production plants in Turkey(something they didn't allow for EU states) and if a rupture were to happen with the West which is advantageous to China, why would China be opposed to a sale of engines.

You guys speak as if its an impossibility, but I don't really see the reason other than, well China has never sold engines before(which to be fair, there has never been a customer seeking to buy Chinese engines on their own, rather than as an aircraft package)

 

[MMM-E]

Not sure but was it you who said in some other place that KAAN won't fly in 2023? Let's wait and see.

in 2020 , He called me ultra nationalist fan boy when I said KAAN will fly in 2023
He called KAAN as a wooden mock up

and he is still babbling here and offers his own wishes for the KAAN engine project to fail

Turkiye will not ask engine from China ...
Turkish engine is coming as of 2029 .... yes as you said Let's wait and see.

 

[hodor]

They were rumored to offer J-10s and J-35s to Egypt. Turkey in the past had signed a deal for the HQ-9 before it was cancelled under US pressure, and Turkey bought Ballistic Missile tech transfer from China in the past. If they were willing to sell Air defense stuff, whats the big deal in selling off the shelf engines, no tech transfer or anything, just an engine sale. China has been courting Turkey as part of BRICS and investing in Battery production plants in Turkey(something they didn't allow for EU states) and if a rupture were to happen with the West which is advantageous to China, why would China be opposed to a sale of engines.

You guys speak as if its an impossibility, but I don't really see the reason other than, well China has never sold engines before(which to be fair, there has never been a customer seeking to buy Chinese engines on their own, rather than as an aircraft package)

If we request the WS-10 engine from China, they will sell it. Turkey is an important country for China in the region

in 2020 , He called me ultra nationalist fan boy when I said KAAN will fly in 2023
He called KAAN as a wooden mock up

and he is still babbling here and offers his own wishes for the KAAN engine project to fail

Turkiye will not ask engine from China ...
Turkish engine is coming as of 2029 .... yes as you said Let's wait and see.

The TF35000 is highly likely to face delays. Even under an optimistic scenario, it would not be possible to form a fleet before 2035

 

[hyperman]

Your statement is not in line with your status. It is too childish. ------ Exporting engines separately for other countries' fighter jets means that you need to do a lot of adaptation work and open some of the engine's control codes to flight control system developers.
Yes. The WS-10B is a possibility.
But.
Is Turkey willing to purchase the WS-10B to power the KAAN?
China will not impose political conditions, but it would require Turkey to make some politically friendly moves first. Is Türkiye willing? (In the current Chinese perception, Türkiye is a potential hostile country, not a friendly country. )
I think it is impossible for China and Türkiye to reach a deal on the WS-10B engine.

3. What can Pakistan do about this?
The best approach for Pakistan is to do nothing. This matter has nothing to do with Pakistan.

So again long story short: CHINA WILL NOT SUPPLY ENGINES FOR KAAN TO TURKEY!
At least, this view holds true for the next 20-30 years.

Well the whole premise rests on Turkey not being able to acquire F110s from the US, and that rests on some sort of political rupture.

What Turkey needs is a stopgap engine for a few years until its domestic powerplant is ready, in the same way China needed the AL-31 for its early J-20s. In that outlook, the WS-10B would work fine as its comparable to the F110s.

In the current Chinese perception, Türkiye is a potential hostile country, not a friendly country.

I don't know how you came to this conclusion. From what basis? because Turkey is NATO, thus its a "potential hostile country"? If thats true, why is China inviting Turkey to SCO summits, do you know of any NATO states being invited there?(maybe Hungary under Orban), and Why is Turkey being looked at as a perspective BRICS member? Turkey does not have hostile relations with China, infact China is investing in Turkey, case in point a BYD battery factory in Turkey, something it forbid BYD to do in the EU. So clearly Chinese policy is not uniform.

3. What can Pakistan do about this?
The best approach for Pakistan is to do nothing. This matter has nothing to do with Pakistan.

I don't know, I never mentioned pakistan, you mentioned Pakistan.

 

[MMM-E]

The TF35000 is highly likely to face delays. Even under an optimistic scenario, it would not be possible to form a fleet before 2035

TEİ General Manager AKSIT :
“We will fly KAAN with a domestically produced engine in 2029"

The integration of the engine into KAAN will be completed in 2032 and the production of 48 units will take 2 years

TURAF can get 2 squadrons of the KAAN with domestic engine by 2034-2035

Therefore , Turkiye planned to deliver 20 KAAN with American Engine to the Turkish Air Force until 2030

It looks like it will be a 5-year gap
Greece will get into the mood for nonsense when get 20 F-35s between 2028 and 2030

 

[xbat]

Almost funny, but it seems, I‘m not alone with my opinion:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...r-billions-in-arms-exports-hinge-on-us-engine

The main points:

"Turkey has signaled it is willing to compromise over the Russian S-400 missiles, though it is opposed to abandoning the hardware. Turkey could agree to a technical, joint military mechanism to supervise the missiles."

"The country’s efforts to develop its own high-performance military turbofans have made halting progress, with Tusas Engine Industries’ TF35000 facing snags in making the engine’s combustion chamber, turbine, nozzle, afterburner and exhaust, said the people, asking not to be identified because the topic is sensitive."

“The CAATSA issue is actually a major problem for us,” Although Turkey has assembled high-performance engines and components in the past, the lack of industrial experience in developing every element of such a complex system on its own has slowed the TF35000"

So the domestic engine will certainly not be ready by 2032. And there doesn't seem to be any plan B regarding alternative powerplants. Getting the U.S. to ease up on the export licenses is the only way forward. But as another poster mentioned, Turkey has burned a lot of bridges and has made powerful enemies in Congress.

these are only your wishes nothing else, we have discussed similar conversations before, we will see

 

[Merzifonlu]

@MMM-E

What you're talking about is a solution, but I'm not talking about that.

I'm talking about using the original TF35000 engine but in its immature form and at two-thirds target thrust.

We don't even have the manpower & resources to produce the F110 derivative.

 

[MMM-E]

What you're talking about is a solution, but I'm not talking about that.

I'm talking about using the original TF35000 engine, in its immature form, at two-thirds thrust.

We don't even have the manpower & resources to produce the F110 derivative.

I say the same thing. We don't have to wait until we develop a 35,000 lbf engine

We can produce 29.000-30,000 lbf engine in the first stage by 2029 , It would be sufficient for the KAAN level with F-110 engine


In the following years, we can increase the TF-35.000 Engine to 35,000 lbf, just like the Chinese engine WS-10 .... ( WS-10A with thrust of 29.000-31.000 lbf and WS-10G with thrust of 34.000-35.000 lbf )

 

[hyperman]

It is an interesting question, maybe China will feel that with Turkiye being a NATO country, that the sale of engines will disclose performance characteristics of those engines that they rather not have the rest of NATO see?

There are strategic issues of military secrecy and confidentiality when dealing with a NATO country, we don't know how much NATO countries are obliged to share with other countries, that kind of information (that also applies to the S400 i know).

They were ready to sell HQ-9s before in the 2010s, a contract was signed, then Turkey cancelled under pressure from the US.

These are just engines, regardless, the whole scenario of Chinese engines assumes a denial of F110s, which would be b/c of a rupture in relations with the US/EU anyways, so these people assuming "China won't sell b/c NATO", have a flawed understanding of the hypothetical that is being suggested in the first place.

If Russia can S-400s to Turkey(an arguably much more strategic asset than an off the shelf engine buy), then it can sell Engines to Turkey, if Russia can sell, what prevents China which had offered the HQ-9 previously which Turkey signed a contract for but then cancelled b/c of US pressure.

Engines are not more valuable than air defense in terms of sales and the need to guard any confidential elements.

 

[Michael]

The irony is - and I have been bashed and insulted from the usual suspects so often for saying it; anyway, still once again:

Realism and nationalism are incompatible. You can choose to ignore certain things to reduce your troubles.

What Turkey needs is a stopgap engine for a few years until its domestic powerplant is ready, in the same way China needed the AL-31 for its early J-20s. In that outlook, the WS-10B would work fine as its comparable to the F110s.

The two are incomparable.

China's use of the AL-31 engine in early J-20 fighter jet testing was, in fact, "illegal."
When China acquired the Su-27 fighter jet from Russia, it also received the AL-31 engine overhaul and maintenance system. Since then, China has been conducting in-depth research on the AL-31.
Russia's export of AL-31 engines to China is strictly limited to the number of spare engines under the Sino-Russian Su-27/J-11 contract.
However, through in-depth research on the AL-31 engine, China has improved and optimized maintenance procedures and produced some parts that are superior to the original ones. These measures have ensured that the actual operating time of the AL-31 engines on China's Su-27/J-11 aircraft far exceeds Russian standards. This has resulted in China possessing a large number of additional AL-31 engines.
Russia has never permitted China to use the AL-31 engine in the J-20, J-11B, J-15, or J-16. They have also not provided any technical support for these "illegal uses." Instead, they have condoned this behavior. (Later, Russia breached another Sino-Russian military trade agreement. However, Russia did not want to return China's advance payment and liquidated damages. Therefore, Russia provided China with a separate batch of AL-31 engines to offset part of the payment. These engines had no restrictions on their use, and China was free to use them at will.)

Through reverse engineering, China has already achieved the technical capability to completely clone the AL-31 engine. However, China and Russia have different military tactical thinking. Therefore, we combined these technological research findings with other research results to develop our own turbofan engine. This is how engines such as the WS-10 and WS-15 were born.

I don't know how you came to this conclusion. From what basis? because Turkey is NATO, thus its a "potential hostile country"? If thats true, why is China inviting Turkey to SCO summits, do you know of any NATO states being invited there?(maybe Hungary under Orban), and Why is Turkey being looked at as a perspective BRICS member? Turkey does not have hostile relations with China, infact China is investing in Turkey, case in point a BYD battery factory in Turkey, something it forbid BYD to do in the EU. So clearly Chinese policy is not uniform.

Military, economic, and diplomatic issues are three separate issues. At least, they are separate issues in China.

I don't want to comment on China-Turkish relations here.

You can use the China-Indian relationship as an analogy for the China-Turkish relationship. From the Chinese perspective, there are some differences in details, but they are on the same level.

There are many irreconcilable contradictions between China and India, but they also cooperate in many areas. The same is true for China and Türkiye.