The Case for Pakistan as a Civilizational State

[ThunderCat]

Iran is a true civilizational state.
Pakistan is neither civilizational nor a proper nationalist state.
Yes we do have a lot of history but that's not a consistent history where one civilization ruled and brought forward it's influence.

"Iran" as a name might be ancient but was applied much more recently during the Safavid dynasty for the lands it ruled according to Iranian intellects such as Reza Zia Ebrahimi just to name one.

Prior to this the people of today's Iran did not have a concept of "Iran."

The notion of a civic state is a new concept. Pakistan is not an exception.

One could argue that Italy is a civilization state, being heir to ancient Roman civilization and modern Italian being a descendant of Latin, the language of Ancient Rome.

When countries apply ancient names to modern constructs, it become a little confusing.

Iran and India are examples of that.

 

[SecularNationalist]

"Iran" as a name might be ancient but was applied much more recently during the Safavid dynasty for the lands it ruled according to Iranian intellects such as Reza Zia Ebrahimi just to name one.

Prior to this the people of today's Iran did not have a concept of "Iran."

The notion of a civic state is a new concept. Pakistan is not an exception.

One could argue that Italy is a civilization state, being heir to ancient Roman civilization and modern Italian being a descendant of Latin, the language of Ancient Rome.

When countries apply ancient names to modern constructs, it become a little confusing.

Iran and India are examples of that.

Well Iran was never colonized. They kept their culture and system for a longer time.
And that explains why even to this day they don't get along with western powers and facing sanctions and war. They are very proud people who cant be subdued. Not like pakistan where US and other western powers has a huge influence in decision making.

 

[Watandar]

Well Iran was never colonized. They kept their culture and system for a longer time.
And that explains why even to this day they don't get along with western powers and facing sanctions and war. They are very proud people who cant be subdued. Not like pakistan where US and other western powers has a huge influence in decision making.

Iran was colonized in the past by Alexander and his Macedonians and later by the Mongols. But it all happened many many eons ago.

 

[Vikramaditya1]

Excellent article. Very professionally compiled record of the salient themes pertaining to this topic. I have very marginal and cosmetic disagreements with some elements (e.g. for me, Pakistan is the primary legacy nation state of the IVC and India is only secondary. I don't regard them as having equal status in this regard).

A better proposition is to take entire ownership of IVC as a Pakistani civilization and leaving artefacts DNA samples found in India (given some sites are over 500Km apart) as a different civilization with a different name. That way we can partition retrospectively.

 

[Master Chief]

A better proposition is to take entire ownership of IVC as a Pakistani civilization and leaving artefacts DNA samples found in India (given some sites are over 500Km apart) as a different civilization with a different name. That way we can partition retrospectively.

Impossible. This would be scientifically inaccurate.

No, you will have to go to sleep every night content with the reality that ancient Pakistanis are one of your (many) fathers.

 

[ThunderCat]

Well Iran was never colonized. They kept their culture and system for a longer time.
And that explains why even to this day they don't get along with western powers and facing sanctions and war. They are very proud people who cant be subdued. Not like pakistan where US and other western powers has a huge influence in decision making.

That's besides the point. Modern Iranians did not have a concept of being "Iranian" until the last three centuries, when the concept of "Iran" was constructed.

Iranians are also culturally diverse, mind you. Much like Pakistanis. Colonized or not.

And each of Pakistan's ethnic groups, particularly Sindhis have a continuing ancient cultural heritage. It was from Sindhu that Indus & India sprung.

 

[ThunderCat]

Iran was colonized in the past by Alexander and his Macedonians and later by the Mongols. But it all happened many many eons ago.

Technically no, since there was no country by that name. Of course you probably mean present-day Iran.

Yes it so. Even "Greece" did not exist at that time. Only as a pan-ethnicity but no country as Greece was recorded at that time.

 

[Vikramaditya1]

Impossible. This would be scientifically inaccurate.

No, you will have to go to sleep every night content with the reality that ancient Pakistanis are one of your (many) fathers.

More like you need our scientific research and development and PR.

 

[FuturePAF]

Iran is a true civilizational state.
Pakistan is neither civilizational nor a proper nationalist state.
Yes we do have a lot of history but that's not a consistent history where one civilization ruled and brought forward it's influence.

It’s interesting you mention Iran. In a sense, Iran has been the civilization state of the region since the Bronze Age collapse; 1300 BCE. Coherent and unified regardless of who was in leadership.

China was the civilizational state in east Asia, and Rome was that state in the Mediterranean.

“India” could also be said to be a civilizational state, via a vi a cultural adoption in the region of what we would now call Hinduism. Islam, via Sufi culture didn’t supersede Hinduism but gradually built up influence, similar to Sufism in Central Asia, as far best as I understand. Ebbing and glowing with different governments and culture shifts.

Regardless of if Pakistan today would be considered a civilizational state is only a distraction from doing the hard work of national building. Respecting the diversity of the national framework, but working on ways to uphold the bonds of unity through strengthening common cultural and social institutions.

If you look at Hispanic cultural globally, it was a task of nation building in Spain, and then holding firm to it, regardless of where it was spread, to the point that it is just as strong on the periphery as it is in Madrid, with the exceptions of local pushback in Catalonia and Basque Country.

 

[SecularNationalist]

But it all happened many many eons ago.

Thats what I wanted to say. They have something that's been with them since a long long time.
And here in the indian subcontinent Britishers were ruling over us just 70 years ago.
We still see their cultural influence over us.
Heck the annoying thing I see daily at evening excercise time..kids talking to each other in English and to add insult to injury they are trying to talk in British and US accent.
Fun fact : they have never been to US and UK.

 

[ThunderCat]

Thats what I wanted to say. They have something that's been with them since a long long time.
And here in the indian subcontinent Britishers were ruling over us just 70 years ago.
We still see their cultural influence over us.
Heck the annoying thing I see daily at evening excercise time..kids talking to each other in English and to add insult to injury they are trying to talk in British and US accent.
Fun fact : they have never been to US and UK.

That's only the elite class. And this English wannbe-mentality I see most in mostly in Sindh province amongst Sindhis & Muhajir ethnic groups, which the middle class and lower classes try to emulate on.

Sindhis & Muhajirs (various ethnicities) are the most white-washed people in Pakistan i find.

But British cultural influence in Pakistan exceeds that. For example our law enforcement agencies are of British origin.

It was only recently that I learned the khaki brown & black police uniforms are of British heritage.

Not all British influence was bad. They even contributed to our linguistic heritage by contributing to our indiignious linguistic heritage.

It was not them who imposed English on us but our corrupt elite class.

I mean i am English speaking, but still proud of my cultural and linguistic heritage.

When I speak Lashkari, i speak it without inserting English. I am proud of who I am and my heritage.

I am probably the proudest and patriotic Pakistani on Earth.

 

[SecularNationalist]

That's only the elite class. And this English wannbe-mentality I see most in mostly in Sindh province amongst Sindhis & Muhajir ethnic groups, which the middle class and lower classes try to emulate on.

Sindhis & Muhajirs (various ethnicities) are the most white-washed people in Pakistan i find.

But British cultural influence in Pakistan exceeds that. For example our law enforcement agencies are of British origin.

It was only recently that I learned the khaki brown & black police uniforms are of British heritage.

Not all British influence was bad. They even contributed to our linguistic heritage by contributing to our indiignious linguistic heritage.

It was not them who imposed English on us but our corrupt elite class.

I mean i am English speaking, but still proud of my cultural and linguistic heritage.

When I speak Lashkari, i speak it without inserting English. I am proud of who I am and my heritage.

I am probably the proudest and patriotic Pakistani on Earth.

Partially agree with you but bro in what world you are living Sindhis are preserving their cultural heritage better than other provinces. If they are trying to be wanna be English men along with middle class muhajirs then God bless us very sad state. That's not the elite class thing ,that's widespread. I was talking about the place where I live and I am not elite class,just middle upper class.

 

[ThunderCat]

Partially agree with you but bro in what world you are living Sindhis are preserving their cultural heritage better than other provinces. If they are trying to be wanna be English men along with middle class muhajirs then God bless us very sad state. That's not the elite class thing ,that's widespread. I was talking about the place where I live and I am not elite class,just middle upper class.

Yes that too. People of the middle class are have noticeable white-washed boot-lickers.

But I would argue it's mostly popular amongst Sindhis, Muhajirs and other ethnic groups who live in Sindh.

In Punjab, KP, Balochistan & Kashmir it's not much of an obsession even if English is mildly taught & used there.

It's funny to see Sindhis complaining about Lashkari posing a threat to their language but are so keen on becoming English experts.

Meanwhile even a globalized economy like Turkey can't be half as obsessed with English even though they require it sometimes for their tourism industry, but even then they're not keen to learn it like our elites in Sindh province.

It is indeed ridiculous. I ridiculed it long before I was an active Internet participant.

 

[SecularNationalist]

Yes that too. People of the middle class are have noticeable white-washed boot-lickers.

But I would argue it's mostly popular amongst Sindhis, Muhajirs and other ethnic groups who live in Sindh.

In Punjab, KP, Balochistan & Kashmir it's not much of an obsession even if English is mildly taught & used there.

It's funny to see Sindhis complaining about Lashkari posing a threat to their language but are so keen on becoming English experts.

Meanwhile even a globalized economy like Turkey can't be half as obsessed with English even though they require it sometimes for their tourism industry, but even then they're not keen to learn it like our elites in Sindh province.

It is indeed ridiculous. I ridiculed it long before I was an active Internet participant.

English isn't mildly taught in our schools. All curriculum is in English.
Making Urdu mandatory till tenth grade is just a half a$$ effort. While provincial languages are completely ignored.
It's good though to learn English well. It helps when you travel abroad,also it helps to work remotely inside pakistan while bringing foreign exchange to the economy.
But that's it. It should be used where there is a purpose and benefit. Not to become a angrez and feeling proud about it while cursing your mother tongue and treating it as inferior language.
Here parents force children to talk outside in English ,in their little minds they are installing the concept of English is a symbol of education and white skinned people are some super human beings. Also to impress others and to look cool. That's plain mental slavery.

 

[ThunderCat]

English isn't mildly taught in our schools. All curriculum is in English.
Making Urdu mandatory till tenth grade is just a half a$$ effort. While provincial languages are completely ignored.
It's good though to learn English well. It helps when you travel abroad,also it helps to work remotely inside pakistan while bringing foreign exchange to the economy.
But that's it. It should be used where there is a purpose and benefit. Not to become a angrez and feeling proud about it while cursing your mother tongue and treating it as inferior language.
Here parents force children to talk outside in English ,in their little minds they are installing the concept of English is a symbol of education and white skinned people are some super human beings. Also to impress others and to look cool. That's plain mental slavery.

Yes this mental slavery I noticed going back over two decades which I argued with people over and still do.

English should only be used if they're traveling abroad for work and studies.

One thing is English alphabet is easier to master and English is also grammatically bit simpler than our language but I agree it's no excuse.

I think we should have adopted a printed alphabet to make reading easier for our own people. Such as a modified Scythian alphabet.