The Case for Pakistan as a Civilizational State

[ThunderCat]

Iran is a true civilizational state.
Pakistan is neither civilizational nor a proper nationalist state.
Yes we do have a lot of history but that's not a consistent history where one civilization ruled and brought forward it's influence.

"Iran" as a name might be ancient but was applied much more recently during the Safavid dynasty for the lands it ruled according to Iranian intellects such as Reza Zia Ebrahimi just to name one.

Prior to this the people of today's Iran did not have a concept of "Iran."

The notion of a civic state is a new concept. Pakistan is not an exception.

One could argue that Italy is a civilization state, being heir to ancient Roman civilization and modern Italian being a descendant of Latin, the language of Ancient Rome.

When countries apply ancient names to modern constructs, it become a little confusing.

Iran and India are examples of that.

 

[SecularNationalist]

"Iran" as a name might be ancient but was applied much more recently during the Safavid dynasty for the lands it ruled according to Iranian intellects such as Reza Zia Ebrahimi just to name one.

Prior to this the people of today's Iran did not have a concept of "Iran."

The notion of a civic state is a new concept. Pakistan is not an exception.

One could argue that Italy is a civilization state, being heir to ancient Roman civilization and modern Italian being a descendant of Latin, the language of Ancient Rome.

When countries apply ancient names to modern constructs, it become a little confusing.

Iran and India are examples of that.

Well Iran was never colonized. They kept their culture and system for a longer time.
And that explains why even to this day they don't get along with western powers and facing sanctions and war. They are very proud people who cant be subdued. Not like pakistan where US and other western powers has a huge influence in decision making.

 

[Watandar]

Well Iran was never colonized. They kept their culture and system for a longer time.
And that explains why even to this day they don't get along with western powers and facing sanctions and war. They are very proud people who cant be subdued. Not like pakistan where US and other western powers has a huge influence in decision making.

Iran was colonized in the past by Alexander and his Macedonians and later by the Mongols. But it all happened many many eons ago.

 

[Vikramaditya1]

Excellent article. Very professionally compiled record of the salient themes pertaining to this topic. I have very marginal and cosmetic disagreements with some elements (e.g. for me, Pakistan is the primary legacy nation state of the IVC and India is only secondary. I don't regard them as having equal status in this regard).

A better proposition is to take entire ownership of IVC as a Pakistani civilization and leaving artefacts DNA samples found in India (given some sites are over 500Km apart) as a different civilization with a different name. That way we can partition retrospectively.

 

[Master Chief]

A better proposition is to take entire ownership of IVC as a Pakistani civilization and leaving artefacts DNA samples found in India (given some sites are over 500Km apart) as a different civilization with a different name. That way we can partition retrospectively.

Impossible. This would be scientifically inaccurate.

No, you will have to go to sleep every night content with the reality that ancient Pakistanis are one of your (many) fathers.

 

[ThunderCat]

Well Iran was never colonized. They kept their culture and system for a longer time.
And that explains why even to this day they don't get along with western powers and facing sanctions and war. They are very proud people who cant be subdued. Not like pakistan where US and other western powers has a huge influence in decision making.

That's besides the point. Modern Iranians did not have a concept of being "Iranian" until the last three centuries, when the concept of "Iran" was constructed.

Iranians are also culturally diverse, mind you. Much like Pakistanis. Colonized or not.

And each of Pakistan's ethnic groups, particularly Sindhis have a continuing ancient cultural heritage. It was from Sindhu that Indus & India sprung.

 

[ThunderCat]

Iran was colonized in the past by Alexander and his Macedonians and later by the Mongols. But it all happened many many eons ago.

Technically no, since there was no country by that name. Of course you probably mean present-day Iran.

Yes it so. Even "Greece" did not exist at that time. Only as a pan-ethnicity but no country as Greece was recorded at that time.

 

[Vikramaditya1]

Impossible. This would be scientifically inaccurate.

No, you will have to go to sleep every night content with the reality that ancient Pakistanis are one of your (many) fathers.

More like you need our scientific research and development and PR.

 

[FuturePAF]

Iran is a true civilizational state.
Pakistan is neither civilizational nor a proper nationalist state.
Yes we do have a lot of history but that's not a consistent history where one civilization ruled and brought forward it's influence.

It’s interesting you mention Iran. In a sense, Iran has been the civilization state of the region since the Bronze Age collapse; 1300 BCE. Coherent and unified regardless of who was in leadership.

China was the civilizational state in east Asia, and Rome was that state in the Mediterranean.

“India” could also be said to be a civilizational state, via a vi a cultural adoption in the region of what we would now call Hinduism. Islam, via Sufi culture didn’t supersede Hinduism but gradually built up influence, similar to Sufism in Central Asia, as far best as I understand. Ebbing and glowing with different governments and culture shifts.

Regardless of if Pakistan today would be considered a civilizational state is only a distraction from doing the hard work of national building. Respecting the diversity of the national framework, but working on ways to uphold the bonds of unity through strengthening common cultural and social institutions.

If you look at Hispanic cultural globally, it was a task of nation building in Spain, and then holding firm to it, regardless of where it was spread, to the point that it is just as strong on the periphery as it is in Madrid, with the exceptions of local pushback in Catalonia and Basque Country.