The origin of Han China was Vietnamese?

[Hendarto]

I mean Chinese Singaporeans not Malays and the Chinese look down on each other nevermind foreigners

Your video title says 'Domination', for Vietnam to be dominated don't you think people from China needed to move and settle there? Where in China did those people come from?

About the language
the word Chu has an AA root

楚 - Wiktionary, the free dictionary

en.wiktionary.org

the word for “child” in the Chu language was something like /koːn/ (written as “觀”), which was a cognate with Vietnamese con
Chu language was full of AA words
https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/33979260

I already saw it, I had a good laugh everytime the Chinese commentators started speaking because of their hilarious agenda. You should watch this

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Well, I want to refute your assertion that Vietnamese came from Chu because of the distance then you give Spore as an example trying to counter my argument. I explain in my post that Colonial power encouraged Chinese immigration to Spore. Anyway immigration in large numbers didn't take place until they opened the steam line from Shantou to Spore in the late 19th century

I read the article It is only a hypothesis How did he know what language did Chu speak? or how it sounds when the language is dead. No one speaks Chu language anymore it has been dead for 2000 years. Anyway they don't speak Mandarin As putonghua is only spoken since the Song dynasty originated in Middle Chinese

 

[chuethnic]

It's your speculation that Vietnamese came from Hunan. There is no evidence except you come up with couple of Chinese significant characters about Hunan sound similar to Vietnamese, that might just be coincidence, you know Chinese characters only have 400 different sounds. so there are many Chinese characters out of total of over 50000 with the same or similar sounds. There is lots of evidence and historical records saying that Cantonese and Vietnamese are related, they both are called Yue or Viet in Chinese 越 people, but different branches.

No, Chinese including Taiwanese used to think the Japanese as barbarians (倭人）at the time Japan invaded Taiwan and seized it, the Taiwanese didn't want to be part of Japan, they fought fearless against the Japanese army, in the first years Japanese conquest of Taiwan, they actually killed close to 500000 Taiwanese. It's later after colonization, the Taiwanese got brainwashed and began to worship the Japanese.

Of course, 60 years is enough to install cultures or practices on two or three generations of the conquered land even in ancient times, no excuse here ! There is no evidence or historical records saying that Liu Bang's ancestors came from Hubei, Hunan or the Chu army. It's accepted that Liu Bang's family lived in the North Jiangsu 市丰县 or North China plain.

"刘邦的家族最早是晋国的, 遇上三家分晋后,他们便跟随魏国人来到了沛丰。刘邦爷爷是被魏国封过爵位的。从认同上早期刘邦是偏向魏国，因为沛丰那时候虽然在楚国治下，但是认同完全是魏国，甚至还有完全独立于楚国体系的结社小团体，刘邦年轻的时候也非常崇拜魏国信陵君。这方面是有一系列佐证的。后来丰邑父老跟随雍齿反叛自己依附魏国的时候刘邦是异常愤怒，但可能也是因为这样他最后对自己汉王的认同就高于魏国了。"

"西汉开国核心群体多楚人直接导致汉代服饰受到楚风影响。"（论文参考：《论楚文化对汉初服饰之影响_王珺英》）

《汉书·高帝纪》的“赞”中写道：涉魏而东，遂为丰公。丰公，盖太上皇父。

刘邦祖上原来就是个大忽悠, 一封信就把秦晋两国都玩的团团转

这一着急就找士会商量，士会很聪明，他认为：两国对峙，不打一仗肯定不行，但如果长期消耗下去，即便取得胜利，付出的代价也太大，以秦国的国力，可能会多少年都缓不过来，综合这两种因素考虑，可以胜一仗以立威，出了令狐之…

www.sohu.com

Genes

越南人：从上学第一天开始，“中国”就占据了我们历史课的80%

越南人：从上学第一天开始，“中国”就占据了我们历史课的80%,历史课,神农氏,单倍群,越南人,越南

www.163.com

Language
Scholars such as John Phan(2013:2016) and Hilario deSousa(2016) argue that Sino-Vietnamese in part comes from a spoken interaction between Việt-Mường and Chinese speakers in Annam speaking a variety of Chinese called Annamese Middle Chinese AMC, part of a larger dialect continuum called Southwestern Middle Chinese SMC. Phan and deSousa also claim that SMC developed into dialects spoken in Southwestern China today
It has been hypothesized by Phan that Annamese Middle Chinese is closely related to the ancestors of Pinghua and Xiang varieties

Pinghua is primarily associated with the Han Chinese migrants who entered Guangxi through Hunan
What is the common denominator here? If this Chinese language continuum that spawned Pinghua and Xiang are traced back to Hunanese people then for Annamese Middle Chinese to appear in Vietnam must mean Hunanese migrated there

It doesn't matter what Taiwanese thought of Japanese before their occupation because it was Japan that civilised them, Taiwanese were given education,
industrialisation, they can see with their own eyes the higher superiority of Japanese. In Warring states, Chu is in a constant state of war, how can they spread their culture?

Xiang Yu was born in Suqian, not far away from Pei so clearly Chu people are living in this general region. It is only recorded in Shiji that Liu Bang was born in Pei, anything other than that was added later. Why did he honour his hometown as falling under Chu Kingdom if he had associations to Wei or Jin?

 

[chuethnic]

Well, I want to refute your assertion that Vietnamese came from Chu because of the distance then you give Spore as an example trying to counter my argument. I explain in my post that Colonial power encouraged Chinese immigration to Spore. Anyway immigration in large numbers didn't take place until they opened the steam line from Shantou to Spore in the late 19th century.

I read the article It is only a hypothesis How did he know what language did Chu speak? or how it sounds when the language is dead. No one speaks Chu language anymore it has been dead for 2000 years. Anyway they don't speak Mandarin As putonghua is only spoken since the Song dynasty originated in Middle Chinese

But immigration from China did take place so distance is not a reason to rule out the Chu origin of Vietnamese

Certain words from Chu language were recorded by Chinese because they sounded different to how Huaxia spoke. They used one character to represent the meaning and another character to show the pronunciation. Using those pronunciation characters they found that it sounds the similar in Khmer while also matching in meaning

 

[Hendarto]

But immigration from China did take place so distance is not a reason to rule out the Chu origin of Vietnamese

Certain words from Chu language were recorded by Chinese because they sounded different to how Huaxia spoke. They used one character to represent the meaning and another character to show the pronunciation. Using those pronunciation characters they found that it sounds the similar in Khmer while also matching in meaning

Ancient people could not travel that far there were no horses and carts, and no roads back then.
Well if you look long enough you will always find cognate but I don't think they found a large body of words to justify the hypothesis.

Another thing is that language by itself is not enough you have to confirm it with genetic and archeological findings. So all 3 must be present before you can make a hypothesis. There is no genetic study that ties Vietnamese to Chu I don't know how you can do that because Chu people long time ago assimilated into Huaxia. On the other hand, there is plenty of evidence to tie Vietnamese to Cantonese. Historical records,ethnology, genetic maybe, and languages

 

[ety]

Genes

越南人：从上学第一天开始，“中国”就占据了我们历史课的80%

越南人：从上学第一天开始，“中国”就占据了我们历史课的80%,历史课,神农氏,单倍群,越南人,越南

www.163.com

Language
Scholars such as John Phan(2013:2016) and Hilario deSousa(2016) argue that Sino-Vietnamese in part comes from a spoken interaction between Việt-Mường and Chinese speakers in Annam speaking a variety of Chinese called Annamese Middle Chinese AMC, part of a larger dialect continuum called Southwestern Middle Chinese SMC. Phan and deSousa also claim that SMC developed into dialects spoken in Southwestern China today
It has been hypothesized by Phan that Annamese Middle Chinese is closely related to the ancestors of Pinghua and Xiang varieties

Pinghua is primarily associated with the Han Chinese migrants who entered Guangxi through Hunan
What is the common denominator here? If this Chinese language continuum that spawned Pinghua and Xiang are traced back to Hunanese people then for Annamese Middle Chinese to appear in Vietnam must mean Hunanese migrated there

It doesn't matter what Taiwanese thought of Japanese before their occupation because it was Japan that civilised them, Taiwanese were given education,
industrialisation, they can see with their own eyes the higher superiority of Japanese. In Warring states, Chu is in a constant state of war, how can they spread their culture?

Xiang Yu was born in Suqian, not far away from Pei so clearly Chu people are living in this general region. It is only recorded in Shiji that Liu Bang was born in Pei, anything other than that was added later. Why did he honour his hometown as falling under Chu Kingdom if he had associations to Wei or Jin?

Japanese did not civilize Taiwanese, they force brainwashed Taiwanese under guns to adopt Japanese, Japanese are barbarians till today as you can see they killed 500000 Taiwanese in the process of colonization Taiwanese and now just dump radioactive water to the Pacific without regard for human lives. Its in historical records that Liu Bang family was from Wei, you know that the area is classified as under Shandong culture influence, as poet Li Bai put it he called Liu Bang 山东隆准公。All your saying about Liu Bang are just your speculation so that goes with Vietnamese. It says that only about 10 to 20 percent of Hunanese share one common gene with the Vietnamese. But, about 40 percent of Cantonese share this gene with the Vietamese, so it clearly indicates Vietnamese are more related to Cantonese even according to your article. Also, the spoken language of Vietnamese share quite similarity with Cantonese as you listen to they speak live. This connection is also supported by other historical evidences auch as artifacts. Dont be a history revisionist yourself.

凛痪汗陋斜岂筝久贴性蚂僚玖哄芯定鸡涩良粥状梗轿驳揣榄有渠拷亮? - 知乎

b撩攘友骡辩砌蒜陆耻约杏公抓敌被拆服挡 赠亩帆精羊楣测涮肥堤冠宋撞暑霸诚谋冬耻旗泡

www.zhihu.com

 

[Hendarto]

Here is real archeology research to find the origin of Vietnamese. This guy is half-Korean and half Vietnamese He is digging close to Hanoi a possible site of Au Lac kingdom He found interesting things on the burial site like a burial canoe, rampart, bronze drum, etc But he shows up the red river that runs from Yunnan to the red river delta then to the gulf of Tonkin.

In ancient times the easiest travel was by river So just like the Thai who traveled along the Mekong to migrate to Thailand. After the Mongols destroyed their kingdom, Nan Chao.

I assume the ancestors of the Vietnamese traveled along the Red River to the Red River delta . No North-South river connects delta to Hunan or Hubei

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Nam C. Kim, Professor of Anthropology at UW-Madison, presents new and ongoing archaeological research on the fascinating early history of Vietnam, including the ancient Au Lac Kingdom and its capital city, Co Loa.

 

[gangsta_rap]

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

So the colonial government decided to import Chinese

So the flood of Chinese were displacing and land stealing from the native Singaporeans? I have heard a similar British import scenario mentioned numerous times on PDF about this certain other country on the other side of the planet...

 

[Hendarto]

So the flood of Chinese were displacing and land stealing from the native Singaporeans? I have heard a similar British import scenario mentioned numerous times on PDF about this certain other country on the other side of the planet...

No the colonial government does not believe the natives have the capacity for hard work nor the cultural trait for trade at that time! The British were primarily interested in trade they needed middlemen to collect the natural bounty from the land like rubber crops and open tin mines. and sell their product. The Dutch pirated the ship not for the good but for Chinese workers forcing them to live and work in Batavia now Jakarta

Chinese from Guangdong, not Cantonese but Hakka had the best tin mining technology at that time. Mining is a back-breaking work. Then they also need civil servants, to man the post office, government office, etc, and build houses, warehouses, or offices.

Not many Europeans want to live in humid, primitive, swamp land with danger of malaria and other tropical disease. Also, they want middlemen to distribute goods from Europe like textiles, shoes, and everyday needs to the natives. Collect taxes, etc. So the Chinese are not replacing anyone. They just swamped the natives! The natives are still there today!

They become the middlemen in running the modern economy. The native still plow their land, growing crops. Each has its function. The Chinese are now free from corrupt official and extortion and have the legal right and legal framework like criminal law and court to defend their property. So it is a win-win and soon enough the community prospers.

However, the colonial government left the Chinese a free hand in managing their affair. Things like family quarrels, inheritance, divorce, and minor criminal are handled by the Chinese themselves

 

[Viet]

No the colonial government does not believe the natives have the capacity for hard work nor the cultural trait for trade at that time! The British were primarily interested in trade they needed middlemen to collect the natural bounty from the land like rubber crops and open tin mines. and sell their product. The Dutch pirated the ship not for the good but for Chinese workers forcing them to live and work in Batavia now Jakarta

Chinese from Guangdong, not Cantonese but Hakka had the best tin mining technology at that time. Mining is a back-breaking work. Then they also need civil servants, to man the post office, government office, etc, and build houses, warehouses, or offices.

Not many Europeans want to live in humid, primitive, swamp land with danger of malaria and other tropical disease. Also, they want middlemen to distribute goods from Europe like textiles, shoes, and everyday needs to the natives. Collect taxes, etc. So the Chinese are not replacing anyone. They just swamped the natives! The natives are still there today!

They become the middlemen in running the modern economy. The native still plow their land, growing crops. Each has its function. The Chinese are now free from corrupt official and extortion and have the legal right and legal framework like criminal law and court to defend their property. So it is a win-win and soon enough the community prospers.

However, the colonial government left the Chinese a free hand in managing their affair. Things like family quarrels, inheritance, divorce, and minor criminal are handled by the Chinese themselves

Sort of but not entirely correct in respect to colonialism

The French do totally differently in Vietnam than the British in HK and Singapore. The French wanted to remain control over everything. They brought the French into every gov, and administration. even postal offices were occupied by the French citizens. The French are afraid of potential Viet rebellions.

The British are more relax. They keep control over major gov and administration offices while giving majority of activities to the locals. England had very few thousands British to control large area of the empire, from SG, HK to India.

 

[ety]

Sort of but not entirely correct in respect to colonialism

The French do totally differently in Vietnam than the British in HK and Singapore. The French wanted to remain control over everything. They brought the French into every gov, and administration. even postal offices were occupied by the French citizens. The French are afraid of potential Viet rebellions.

The British are more relax. They keep control over major gov and administration offices while giving majority of activities to the locals. England had very few thousands British to control large area of the empire, from SG, HK to India.

That's why the French came back after WW II and fought the war to hold on to Vietnam.

 

[chuethnic]

Ancient people could not travel that far there were no horses and carts, and no roads back then.
Well if you look long enough you will always find cognate but I don't think they found a large body of words to justify the hypothesis.

Another thing is that language by itself is not enough you have to confirm it with genetic and archeological findings. So all 3 must be present before you can make a hypothesis. There is no genetic study that ties Vietnamese to Chu I don't know how you can do that because Chu people long time ago assimilated into Huaxia. On the other hand, there is plenty of evidence to tie Vietnamese to Cantonese. Historical records,ethnology, genetic maybe, and languages

Why did the Silk Road exist if people can't travel far over land? How did Han Dynasty establish relations with Central Asia?

You can see here Han tombs were all over Vietnam including clustering in Thanh Hoa, Thanh-Nghe is the region almost all Vietnamese rulers and resistance leaders were born or have ancestral ties, how did these tombs appear in Vietnam if people from China couldn't travel far?

Graveyards and the Han Dynasty’s Riverine Empire in Vietnam – Le Minh Khai's SEAsian History Blog (and More!)

Chu is believed by some to have been a Sinitic language, related to Old Chinese. Others have felt strongly that it's not. Mei Tsu-Lin and Jerry Norman, both well regarded scholars in their own right, wrote on Austroasiatic (Mon–Khmer) features in Chu writings. It's possible that it was Sinitic, and it's possible it was Austroasiatic, and in either case borrowed heavily from languages belonging to the other family. Borrowing was incredibly common, and muddies the waters when we're trying to trace origins.

Chu's grammar in terms of word order was not the same as Sinitic languages, and is more in line with Austroasiatic. Lexical items were quite different as well.

The genetic tie is o1b1 gene, it is the gene of Austroasiatic speakers and it was all over ancient China along the Middle Yangtze, the name of the Yangtze itself has an AA root

Here is real archeology research to find the origin of Vietnamese. This guy is half-Korean and half Vietnamese He is digging close to Hanoi a possible site of Au Lac kingdom He found interesting things on the burial site like a burial canoe, rampart, bronze drum, etc But he shows up the red river that runs from Yunnan to the red river delta then to the gulf of Tonkin.

In ancient times the easiest travel was by river So just like the Thai who traveled along the Mekong to migrate to Thailand. After the Mongols destroyed their kingdom, Nan Chao.

I assume the ancestors of the Vietnamese traveled along the Red River to the Red River delta . No North-South river connects delta to Hunan or Hubei View attachment 33031

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Nam C. Kim, Professor of Anthropology at UW-Madison, presents new and ongoing archaeological research on the fascinating early history of Vietnam, including the ancient Au Lac Kingdom and its capital city, Co Loa.

He is mistaking the natives of VIetnam for VIetnamese

You can clearly see there Vietnam was originally inhabited by Austroasiatics but as the data shows modern Vietnamese are genetically distant to them, those AA were conquered by Tai people, these Tai were the Dong Son people, what is the marker of Dong Son culture? Bronze drums, here is Zhuang playing with their drums

Now read what ancient Vietnamese think of those drums

The Unimportance of Bronze Drums in Việt History

In the second half of the twentieth century, the bronze drum became a symbol of “the antiquity of Việt nation.” However, from the time that the people we refer to as the Việt started to record info…

leminhkhai.wordpress.com

Look at the population map of Han Dynasty in 2AD and explain why Guangzhou is less populated than Hanoi if you say only sea travel is possible from China to Lingnan?

 

[chuethnic]

Japanese did not civilize Taiwanese, they force brainwashed Taiwanese under guns to adopt Japanese, Japanese are barbarians till today as you can see they killed 500000 Taiwanese in the process of colonization Taiwanese and now just dump radioactive water to the Pacific without regard for human lives. Its in historical records that Liu Bang family was from Wei, you know that the area is classified as under Shandong culture influence, as poet Li Bai put it he called Liu Bang 山东隆准公。All your saying about Liu Bang are just your speculation so that goes with Vietnamese. It says that only about 10 to 20 percent of Hunanese share one common gene with the Vietnamese. But, about 40 percent of Cantonese share this gene with the Vietamese, so it clearly indicates Vietnamese are more related to Cantonese even according to your article. Also, the spoken language of Vietnamese share quite similarity with Cantonese as you listen to they speak live. This connection is also supported by other historical evidences auch as artifacts. Dont be a history revisionist yourself.

凛痪汗陋斜岂筝久贴性蚂僚玖哄芯定鸡涩良粥状梗轿驳揣榄有渠拷亮? - 知乎

b撩攘友骡辩砌蒜陆耻约杏公抓敌被拆服挡 赠亩帆精羊楣测涮肥堤冠宋撞暑霸诚谋冬耻旗泡

www.zhihu.com

You cannot brainwash anyone unless they want to be brainwashed, you were ruled by Qing for 300 years but no Chinese love Manchus. KMT also killed and terrorised Taiwanese but they can't even win any elections. Japanese are worshipped because their prestige is high so Taiwanese naturally gravitate toward them, your Chinese worship Western people and their culture despite no one forcing you to, even CCP try to stop you but your love for them is too great, why? In Chinese eyes Western people and culture are higher, what was high about Chu for Huaxia to worship them?

Again, the only thing mentioned about Liu Biu's identity in Shiji is he was born in Pei, there is nothing about Wei until later annotations of other historians. I don't know who is Li Bai but from Google he is born 900 years after Liu Bang, how can he know anything?
Xiang Yu from Chu noble bloodline had his capital in Xuzhou only 50km from Pei, there is nothing unnatural about Chu people existing there.

Guangdong is further away from your Chinese o2 invasion genes than Hunan so their o1b1 genes were replaced

Cantonese sounds nothing like VIetnamese so I don't why you think that, compare it to Hunan speech and it is like hearing the same language

全国最难懂方言,全程说湖南土话,不加字幕,听懂3句评论告诉我_哔哩哔哩_bilibili

湖南方言十里不同音并不稀奇,但我们家乡的土话到底有多难懂,以前并不自知.自从2011年和闺蜜去上海和浙江玩的时候,竟然被当地不同场所的服务人员当成韩国人后,深刻明白我们即便在公共场合怎么说,也是没人能听懂的.即便给我们颁发全国最难懂方言,我也会欣然接受的.这次和奶奶的对话,完全出乎意料,能听懂的,要么是看哭了,要么一定笑了., 视频播放量 44228、弹幕量 225、点赞数 427、投硬币枚数 31、收藏人数 115、转发人数 209, 视频作者 湘野红姐, 作者简介...

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Your article says Vietnamese are more closely related to Tai because they are the natives and were assimilated but the genes of Vietnamese are closer to you than even minorities in China so there must be Chinese that migrated to Vietnam for that to happen

 

[Hendarto]

That is correct modern-day Vietnamese has 60% Chinese DNA. But that is easily explained Vietnam was part of China for over 1000 years and through those millennia China sent millions of Han immigrants like soldiers, settlers, farmers, and trade people south. Most of them are single men. There is no doubt huge intermarrying occurring. The same with Koreans and Japanese they too carry a large portion of Chinese DNA Korean as high as 40% and Japanese as high as 30%

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[ety]

You cannot brainwash anyone unless they want to be brainwashed, you were ruled by Qing for 300 years but no Chinese love Manchus. KMT also killed and terrorised Taiwanese but they can't even win any elections. Japanese are worshipped because their prestige is high so Taiwanese naturally gravitate toward them, your Chinese worship Western people and their culture despite no one forcing you to, even CCP try to stop you but your love for them is too great, why? In Chinese eyes Western people and culture are higher, what was high about Chu for Huaxia to worship them?

Again, the only thing mentioned about Liu Biu's identity in Shiji is he was born in Pei, there is nothing about Wei until later annotations of other historians. I don't know who is Li Bai but from Google he is born 900 years after Liu Bang, how can he know anything?
Xiang Yu from Chu noble bloodline had his capital in Xuzhou only 50km from Pei, there is nothing unnatural about Chu people existing there.

Guangdong is further away from your Chinese o2 invasion genes than Hunan so their o1b1 genes were replaced

Cantonese sounds nothing like VIetnamese so I don't why you think that, compare it to Hunan speech and it is like hearing the same language

全国最难懂方言,全程说湖南土话,不加字幕,听懂3句评论告诉我_哔哩哔哩_bilibili

湖南方言十里不同音并不稀奇,但我们家乡的土话到底有多难懂,以前并不自知.自从2011年和闺蜜去上海和浙江玩的时候,竟然被当地不同场所的服务人员当成韩国人后,深刻明白我们即便在公共场合怎么说,也是没人能听懂的.即便给我们颁发全国最难懂方言,我也会欣然接受的.这次和奶奶的对话,完全出乎意料,能听懂的,要么是看哭了,要么一定笑了., 视频播放量 44228、弹幕量 225、点赞数 427、投硬币枚数 31、收藏人数 115、转发人数 209, 视频作者 湘野红姐, 作者简介...

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Your article says Vietnamese are more closely related to Tai because they are the natives and were assimilated but the genes of Vietnamese are closer to you than even minorities in China so there must be Chinese that migrated to Vietnam for that to happen

Of course, Taiwanese were forced brainwashed to worship Japanese. Chinese were forced brainwashed to accept the Manchu rule of them too but not to the same degree as the Taiwanese worship Japanese emperor and culture. What about Chinese today, many of them do like Western culture and things and Communists dont stop them from doing so, but they are no way near you Taiwanese worship the Westerners and Japanese, you people treat Americans, Japanese like your fathers, no shame, try to lecture Chinese ? Besides, Japanese are the most barbaric and evil people in the world except for you Taiwanese, see how savage the Japanese behaved in WW II and all the wars they waged on China, how many innocent people they murdered and killed. Look the Koreans, they were also colonized by the bargaric Japanese for decades, but they unlike you Taiwanese hate the Japanese, lol. Japanese are the real 衣冠禽兽.

There are ample evidence Liu Bang was not from the Chu people, but from the Northern China plain, only you wont accepet it. Li Bai was from Tang dynasty, how do you know he didnt know Liu Bang more than you at the time, he admired Liu Bang so much as we all know. Xiang Yu is himself and doesnt prove anything about Liu Bang, his ancestors might just be the few noble people from Chu in the region, so. I dont know about Xiang Yu.

And, like the other points argued here, only you think the spoken Vietnamese is not similar to the Cantonese, you must have strange hearings, lol.