The Untouchables of India: The Millions Without Hope

[Michael]

@Joe Shearer​

In Chinese analytical theory, there is this saying, “存在即合理”---This is a dialectical thinking concept.
What it means when used in this topic is:
Any system that exists in human society is based on a certain range, a certain period of time, the product of a certain group of people, it is bound to be reasonable under certain conditions.

I would not question the rationality of the Indian caste system. It has existed in Indian society for a very long time. The fact that it has survived for a long time shows that it is a system that is compatible with Indian society. If it was grossly incompatible with Indian society, then it should have been overthrown a long time ago. Any social system is bound to have beneficiaries and victims. The victims are bound to resist. But the extent of their resistance depends on how the beneficiaries of the system deal with these social conflicts.

Hierarchy in human society has existed since the time of the beasts. To this day, hierarchies still exist in all social systems around the globe, it's just that, they are described in different ways.

Regardless of the social system, there are still a large number of people at the bottom of the social hierarchy.
In some social systems, the innately lower social groups can change their destiny through their own efforts.
In some social systems, the congenital underclass social groups, they cannot change their destiny through their own efforts.
In modern civilization, we usually use this criterion to evaluate the rationality of a social system.

Therefore, if the caste system in India is moderately reformed so that the bottom social groups can change their social class through their own efforts, it can still continue to exist for a long time. Otherwise, when the oppressive value of the underlying social groups reaches a certain level, they are bound to explode.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Therefore, if the caste system in India is moderately reformed so that the bottom social groups can change their social class through their own efforts, it can still continue to exist for a long time. Otherwise, when the oppressive value of the underlying social groups reaches a certain level, they are bound to explode.

LOL.

You have articulated the precise problem that those who have sought reform have grappled with. Nobody has solved the problem yet.

Let us, instead, spend time on responses to this, assuming for a moment that all observers are either those who consciously, sub-consciously or unconspicously support the caste system, or those who seek to engage with it with a view to ameliorating the condition of those within it who suffer. A third category consists of those who reject the entire baggage of the system, and who therefore try to build parallel social structures that ignore this system, and create personal, group and social patterns of interaction that do without the caste system.

 

[Sharma Ji]

Even from a cynical self interest perspective,if you care more for Indias image rather than any higher principle; you would have to do better than that as an explanation to the rest of the world, if that were ever to be required.

Sure, the west is meant to have suddenly rubbed their eyes and realised such things exist in India, and everyone is meant to believe in their sincerety...., but this dalit one seems more menacing than any religious difference conflict as an anti India narrative because it resonates more universally.

Divided by class more that caste

"Caste" is mostly just a local desi masala garnish.

Aap apna "sects" waala lafda suljhao.

When's the last time a bunch of dalits stormed an ashram and killed a bunch of pandits ?

 

[r3alist]

Divided by class more that caste

"Caste" is mostly just a local desi masala garnish.

Aap apna "sects" waala lafda suljhao.

When's the last time a bunch of dalits stormed an ashram and killed a bunch of pandits ?

I'll speak for Pakistan here but the breadth of people outside of basic human dignity and the indifference to it can only come from attitudes the elites have and have had for generations, they are simply too used to being ok with it

One of the ways to avoid the discussion is to make relative arguments it seems, and there are valid reasons like war and legacy of colonialism, but then you have to take action at some point

Who anyone blames for this really shouldn't be controversial for anyone speaking in good faith

 

[Sharma Ji]

I'll speak for Pakistan here but the breadth of people outside of basic human dignity and the indifference to it can only come from attitudes the elites have and have had for generations, they are simply too used to being ok with it

One of the ways to avoid the discussion is to make relative arguments it seems, and there are valid reasons like war and legacy of colonialism, but then you have to take action at some point

Who anyone blames for this really shouldn't be controversial for anyone speaking in good faith

I've honestly never seen it first hand, no experience of it.. even as a middil rung brahmand.

Which is not to say it doesn't exist, I guess it must, so many people speak about it after all.

For a Pakistani such as yourself, with no lived experience in/of India.. you're hard to take seriously.

 

[r3alist]

For a Pakistani such as yourself, with no lived experience in/of India.. you're hard to take seriously.

Yet it's not me you need to take seriously

I am not presenting the argument here

 

[Sharma Ji]

Yet it's not me you need to take seriously

I am not presenting the argument here

It is a CLASS thing, paisa !

 

[r3alist]

It is a CLASS thing, paisa !

The most immiserated don't have a class, if only they had such a status

 

[Sharma Ji]

The most immiserated don't have a class, if only they had such a status

I believe the ol'

"sabka maalik ek"

and

"baap bada na bhaiiya, sabsey bada rupaiyya"

adages ? that what these kahavats called, right ? fit just right here.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I believe the ol'

"sabka maalik ek"

and

"baap bada na bhaiiya, sabsey bada rupaiyya"

adages ? that what these kahavats called, right ? fit just right here.

Just a series of diversions and half-truths.
Total hypocrisy.

 

[AjayGhatak]

Are you Dalit yourself?

Are YOU?

Ending caste system in India is actually very easy but no one will do it.

Allow legally lying about your caste, even in the face of contradictory statements. Its that simple. Once there is no legal repercussion to lying about caste, reservation will become meaningless. Caste will become meaningless.

How do I know? Because in my family we have seen it happen. My uncle's daughter married someone via arranged marriage who lied about his caste. Later uncle fumed like hell but could do nothing. Now he is at the forefront of saying that his son-in-law is full fledged Brahmin. LOL! It is hilarious!

I have seen people in Canada lying about their caste. It makes caste so ridiculous that no one takes it seriously. People can legally change their name here and act to whatever caste they want. No one actually cares.

In India lying about caste would have constituted a crime. Not to mention, you cannot change your caste by law. Its Indian law that is protecting the caste in India. Just allow lying about caste and there will be so much mixing of caste in families that no one will care anymore.

 

[Sharma Ji]

Brahmans are smarter than the average. Sure there's dumb ones too, but as a whole, we got way more smarter Bs than the average person, vs Ds, that intelligence gap grows exponentially.

It's just how it is.

If there's any D's around here, posting check kallo vs some proper brahman... ekdum tanatan intelligent vs dumb comments from the D you will finding only.

Kinda like how the average Japanese, Korean etc will be much smarter than the average Somali or Ethiopian etc.

Tough one to broach, this.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Divided by class more that caste

A poor OBC gets opportunities.
A poor Dalit does not.
Both caste and class count. To check which is where, just check the composition of ANY given year at any IIT or IIM.
Finally, it boils down to who you are.

Are YOU?

Ending caste system in India is actually very easy but no one will do it.

Allow legally lying about your caste, even in the face of contradictory statements. Its that simple. Once there is no legal repercussion to lying about caste, reservation will become meaningless. Caste will become meaningless.

How do I know? Because in my family we have seen it happen. My uncle's daughter married someone via arranged marriage who lied about his caste. Later uncle fumed like hell but could do nothing. Now he is at the forefront of saying that his son-in-law is full fledged Brahmin. LOL! It is hilarious!

I have seen people in Canada lying about their caste. It makes caste so ridiculous that no one takes it seriously. People can legally change their name here and act to whatever caste they want. No one actually cares.

In India lying about caste would have constituted a crime. Not to mention, you cannot change your caste by law. Its Indian law that is protecting the caste in India. Just allow lying about caste and there will be so much mixing of caste in families that no one will care anymore.

The point is the attitude one has.

Savarna Hindus who shift ground and act evasive about caste being harmful to society, and spinning tales of how, in a peculiar convoluted way, caste is 'manageable' constitute the vast majority of those defending caste.

For your information, there is no legal bar to representing your caste to be something that it is not, except where people seek false certification in order to get educational or employment preferences.

Your fanciful account is ridiculous.

 

[Joe Shearer]

In India lying about caste would have constituted a crime. Not to mention, you cannot change your caste by law. Its Indian law that is protecting the caste in India. Just allow lying about caste and there will be so much mixing of caste in families that no one will care anymore.

Totally false.

This is a crime only when applying for a false certificate. Without that, anyone can say anything about his or her caste, and there is no way of finding out.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Brahmans are smarter than the average. Sure there's dumb ones too, but as a whole, we got way more smarter Bs than the average person, vs Ds, that intelligence gap grows exponentially.

It's just how it is.

If there's any D's around here, posting check kallo vs some proper brahman... ekdum tanatan intelligent vs dumb comments from the D you will finding only.

Kinda like how the average Japanese, Korean etc will be much smarter than the average Somali or Ethiopian etc.

Tough one to broach, this.

Typical attitude - The Brahmin knows best, and is better equipped.

Nice to see it emerging, like the other emerging stories, from behind the hot denial that caste is a problem at all.