Turkey Greece Relations and Maritime Disputes

[Foinikas]

You guys braindead or something over there? How would it "end" things? It would START things. What part of Turkey will not accept Fiat accompli do you not understand? You will declare it, then Turkey will contest it, at which point you will be forced to contest Turkey's contest, and thats where the conflict starts.

That's why I said the casus belli is the problem.

Theoretically,an expansion to 12 naval miles would null all the desputes grey zones and claims by Turkey. But,Turkey has put this threat of war forward and that's why we can't exercise our right by International Law,to expand to 12 miles.

There is no need for this, keep things frozen and avoid unilateral action, when everything is settled diplomatically, then you can use your part and Turkey can use its part, until then no one uses it, and leaves it alone.

And I ask you:

If we don't expand to 12 miles,would you stop all the claims on EEZ and all the demands for half the Aegean as per the Mavi Vatan doctrine? Or do you admit that Turkey should not allow Greece to drill in the Aegean and East Mediterranean?

Because when you say Greece should keep the status quo and not do any unilateral actions,it's like me telling you "Don't water your garden or I'll beat you up". Don't put a basketball court in your front yard,keep the status quo. Don't provoke. Don't paint your wall differently. Give me half your backyard and let us share the wealth.

 

[hyperman]

that's why we can't exercise our right by International Law

no such law.

would you stop all the claims on EEZ

Two separate issues. One issue is freedom of navigation(whether Turkey can said warships through), the other issue is EEZ use for commercial purposes(whether you can dig underneath).

it's like me telling you "Don't water your garden or I'll beat you up". Don't put a basketball court in your front yard,keep the status quo. Don't provoke. Don't paint your wall differently. Give me half your backyard and let us share the wealth.

This is more like who ownes what is in dispute. And until its settled between the two, you don't go digging on the land, and I won't dig on the land either. If you dig, I will dig too. They you will try to interfere with my digging, and I will interfere with yours, and then a fight will break out. So to stop the fight, no one will dig until everything is settled and everyone agrees. You can walks through, I can walk through(i.e. sail warships), but don't dig. Thats the status quo.

 

[Foinikas]

There is no need for this, keep things frozen and avoid unilateral action, when everything is settled diplomatically, then you can use your part and Turkey can use its part, until then no one uses it, and leaves it alone.

Ok,this is our part and this is your part. Do you agree?

Or is it "either you give it to us diplomatically or we take it with war"?

 

[hyperman]

View attachment 178493

Ok,this is our part and this is your part. Do you agree?

Or is it "either you give it to us diplomatically or we take it with war"?

The island is yours, the water between is not. Turkey sails warship in those areas like open seas. This comedy with claiming half the entire eastern Mediterranean belongs to you b/c of Kastellorizo/Meis Turkey will never accept such BS.



Similarly Turkey will never accept 12 miles, as then the current defacto/dejure right of movement is threatened, and thus as Casus Belli.

 

[Foinikas]

The island is yours, the water between is not. Turkey sails warship in those areas like open seas.

The most ridiculous thing is saying that in such a semi-enclosed Sea,such a small place,the sea between the mainland and the islands,is not part of Greece,but should be exploited by Turkey.

And I repeat,a friendly Turkey would have no problem coming to an agreement with Greece to sail warships to high seas or wherever.

. This comedy with claiming half the entire eastern Mediterranean belongs to you b/c of Kastellorizo/Meis Turkey will never accept such BS.

There could always be an agreement for the EEZ around Kastelorizo,but not one that would disrupt a connection of the Greek and Cypriot EEZs.

And again,like you see on the map,the Turkish claim is even more ridiculous and the problem stems from the fact that Turkey hasn't signed UNCLOS and stubbornly insists only continental shelf counts,islands don't have EEZ and similar theories that have nothing to do with International Law.

All the problems between us,come from such theories which aim to deny us of our sovereign rights. Where in the world have you heard of islands belonging to a country and the EEZ around them belonging to someone else? This is the nonsense of Mavi Vatan theory.

 

[hyperman]

And I repeat,a friendly Turkey would have no problem coming to an agreement with Greece to sail warships to high seas or wherever.

It already exists, its called the status quo with 6 miles. Don't tamper with it.

There could always be an agreement for the EEZ around Kastelorizo,but not one that would disrupt a connection of the Greek and Cypriot EEZs.

Nothing that interferes with Turkey's connection to Libya or Egypt will be accepted.

All the problems between us,come from such theories which aim to deny us of our sovereign rights.

It denies your greedyness. You have more than enough sea to be content, you want it all.

 

[MMM-E]

Even UNCLOS article 74 and 83 says Turkiye has rights


Article 74(1) (EEZ): "The delimitation of the exclusive economic zone between States with opposite or adjacent coasts shall be effected by agreement on the basis of international law, as referred to in Article 38 of the Statute of the International Court of Justice, in order to achieve an equitable solution."

Article 83(1) (continental shelf): Identical wording applies to the continental shelf: "...in order to achieve an equitable solution."


Turkiye stresses the equitable principles in Articles 74/83, arguing islands should not disproportionately limit mainland rights.


Turkiye has rights to continental shelf/EEZ areas based on these principles,

 

[Foinikas]

It denies your greedyness. You have more than enough sea to be content, you want it all.

And you have more than enough see to be content and you also claim you've found huge reserves of gas,yes in the Black Sea. So if one takes that into consideration,demanding the Aegean all of a sudden clearly shows Turkey is the greedy one here.

 

[Foinikas]

Even UNCLOS article 74 and 83 says Turkiye has rights


Article 74(1) (EEZ): "The delimitation of the exclusive economic zone between States with opposite or adjacent coasts shall be effected by agreement on the basis of international law, as referred to in Article 38 of the Statute of the International Court of Justice, in order to achieve an equitable solution."

Article 83(1) (continental shelf): Identical wording applies to the continental shelf: "...in order to achieve an equitable solution."


Turkiye stresses the equitable principles in Articles 74/83, arguing islands should not disproportionately limit mainland rights.


Turkiye has rights to continental shelf/EEZ areas based on these principles,

And this has been debunked as well

A forgotten delimitation​

EEZ Delimitation between United States and Russia
There is a debate among experts and non-experts of UNCLOS about the decision to take the Greek-Turkish dispute to the International Court of Justice and each position cites previous decisions of the Court in order to explain that their position is the correct one.
But all of them have forgotten the delimitation of EEZ between USA and USSR in the Alaska-Siberia region.

The delimitation between the United States and Russia was first agreed between the United States and the USSR on the 1st of June, 1990. Anyone looking at this map can clearly see that the American islands have received full effect and this is one of the reasons the United States has the second largest EEZ on our planet.

With its EEZ, Greece would safeguard the economic unity of its continental and archipelagic space. Greece has a total of 3,100 islands, of which 2,463 are in the Aegean. By comparison, Turkey has only three islands in the Aegean.

 

[MMM-E]

And this has been debunked as well


View attachment 178533

View attachment 178534

A forgotten delimitation​

EEZ Delimitation between United States and Russia
There is a debate among experts and non-experts of UNCLOS about the decision to take the Greek-Turkish dispute to the International Court of Justice and each position cites previous decisions of the Court in order to explain that their position is the correct one.
But all of them have forgotten the delimitation of EEZ between USA and USSR in the Alaska-Siberia region.

The delimitation between the United States and Russia was first agreed between the United States and the USSR on the 1st of June, 1990. Anyone looking at this map can clearly see that the American islands have received full effect and this is one of the reasons the United States has the second largest EEZ on our planet.

With its EEZ, Greece would safeguard the economic unity of its continental and archipelagic space. Greece has a total of 3,100 islands, of which 2,463 are in the Aegean. By comparison, Turkey has only three islands in the Aegean.

The example you gave has nothing to do with the Aegean issue


American Islands are far away from Russian Mainland
on the other hand , most of Greek Islands are just 2-5-7-10 km away from Turkish Mainland


Turkiye stresses the equitable principles in Articles 74/83, arguing islands should not disproportionately limit mainland rights

• Geographical configuration (e.g., presence of numerous islands close to one coast).
• Proportionality (coastal length ratio vs. maritime area allocated).
• Avoiding disproportionate effects from small or remote islands.
• Preventing "cut-off" or "enclavement" of a state's coastline.

 

[Foinikas]

The example you gave has nothing to do with the Aegean issue


American Islands are far away from Russian Mainland
on the other hand , most of Greek Islands are just 2-5-7-10 km away from Turkish Mainland


Turkiye stresses the equitable principles in Articles 74/83, arguing islands should not disproportionately limit mainland rights

• Geographical configuration (e.g., presence of numerous islands close to one coast).
• Proportionality (coastal length ratio vs. maritime area allocated).
• Avoiding disproportionate effects from small or remote islands.
• Preventing "cut-off" or "enclavement" of a state's coastline.

Take a look at the map again

 

[Foinikas]

Turkiye stresses the equitable principles in Articles 74/83, arguing islands should not disproportionately limit mainland rights

• Geographical configuration (e.g., presence of numerous islands close to one coast).
• Proportionality (coastal length ratio vs. maritime area allocated).
• Avoiding disproportionate effects from small or remote islands.
• Preventing "cut-off" or "enclavement" of a state's coastline.

Since you don't sit down to read what I'm posting in photos,I'll c/p it here:

Secondly, according to the “United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea” (UNCLOS), every juridical island is entitled to a continental shelf and an EEZ in equal principle with any other corresponding mainland, besides the legal territorial sea of up to 12 nautical miles.

The UNCLOS treaty and the relevant decisions of international tribunals cannot be invoked a la carte by a non-contracting state, such as Turkey, which not only hasn’t signed it yet but still rejects it as an instrument for interpreting the Law of the Seas.

From a geological and a legal perspective, neither the “Anatolian Plate” reaches the Aegean nor the western Aegean coastline of Turkey is entitled to a continental shelf protruding substantially into the Aegean Sea because the numerous inhabited Greek islands of the Aegean Archipelago are invariably scattered in-between mainland Greece and mainland Turkey, thus essentially blocking Turkey’s access to the core of the Aegean basin.

Therefore, Geography, State Borders, and International Law restrict Turkey’s maritime access and limit its sovereignty de jure and de facto only to a “shallow” part of the Aegean Sea across the western coast of Anatolia.

 

[MMM-E]

Take a look at the map again

The areas I have marked in red are protected as Russia's territory, and it has a large area that is not affected by anything



on the other hand , A tiny area of 2-5 km remains from the Turkish coast

Are you blind ? The entire Aegean Sea is closing off, up to 2-5 km from our coastline

There's no breathing space left for Türkiye in the Aegean.


even UNCLOS article 74 and 83 protect rights of Turkiye

-- Geographical configuration (e.g., presence of numerous islands close to one coast).
-- Proportionality (coastal length ratio vs. maritime area allocated).
-- Avoiding disproportionate effects from small or remote islands.
-- Preventing "cut-off" or "enclavement" of a state's coastline.

 

[Foinikas]

The areas I have marked in red are protected as Russia's territory, and it has a large area that is not affected.
View attachment 178544


on the other hand , A tiny area of 2-5 km remains from the Turkish coast

Are you blind ? The entire Aegean Sea is closing off, up to 2-5 km from our coastline

There's no breathing space left for Türkiye in the Aegean.
View attachment 178543

Read my last post above yours.

 

[MMM-E]

Read my last post above yours.

Read UNCLOS article 74 and 83