Turkish Naval Programs

[Oublious]

Nuclear Reactors are very difficult but I hope so.

But the first step is MILDEN, which itself is a significant undertaking if the whole sub is to be indigenous. The Propulsion system is not easy. Only Germany and Japan have conventional submarine propulsion(non Russian/Chinese Sub) even though many other countries are able to make Submarines? France, Italy, Spain, Sweden, South Korea all use German Submarine propulsion.

It needs a good amount off investment to material science, why it make them quit.

 

[Falcon26]

Nuclear Reactors are very difficult but I hope so.

But the first step is MILDEN, which itself is a significant undertaking if the whole sub is to be indigenous. The Propulsion system is not easy. Only Germany and Japan have conventional submarine propulsion(non Russian/Chinese Sub) even though many other countries are able to make Submarines? France, Italy, Spain, Sweden, South Korea all use German Submarine propulsion.

This is why cooperation with Pakistan is critical. Pakistan has the technology to manufacture miniaturized nuclear propulsion but not the technology to build a credible submarine despite decades of submarine operation and assembling. Turkish has the technology to make a credible submarine but no history of nuclear propulsion technology history. Match made in heaven!

 

[Eşbah]

Pakistan has the technology to manufacture miniaturized nuclear propulsion

I didn't know that.
Can you elaborate further on this matter, please?

 

[Ayeshaarian97u4]

what is the status for new matches related

 

[hyperman]

I didn't know that.
Can you elaborate further on this matter, please?

I don't think they do, he is mistaken, they have build a nuclear program but submarine propulsion is tricky.

 

[SiliconBit (silicon0000)]

I don't think they do, he is mistaken, they have build a nuclear program but submarine propulsion is tricky.

And even if Pakistan had the capability, the US wouldn't allow it to be built. I heard about a meeting 20-30 years ago where a nuclear scientist who wanted to develop smaller nuclear plants or nuclear/atomic batteries type things had his proposal immediately rejected and was indirectly told not to think too much.

 

[hyperman]

And even if Pakistan had the capability, the US wouldn't allow it to be built. I heard about a meeting 20-30 years ago where a nuclear scientist who wanted to develop smaller nuclear plants or nuclear/atomic batteries type things had his proposal immediately rejected and was indirectly told not to think too much.

Well Idk about all that. But If Pakistan builds it, then its good for them, I don't think the US has anything to do with that. Submarine reactors are just very tricky, they recently asked China for help with it, but I think the Chinese may have refused. The ironic thing is that Pakistan was offered by China to lease/buy a nuclear submarine in the 80s and 90s, but the Army turned it down b/c they felt they didn't need it. Now they want it, and are having a hard time getting someone to sell it.

 

[SiliconBit (silicon0000)]

Well Idk about all that. But If Pakistan builds it, then its good for them, I don't think the US has anything to do with that. Submarine reactors are just very tricky, they recently asked China for help with it, but I think the Chinese may have refused. The ironic thing is that Pakistan was offered by China to lease/buy a nuclear submarine in the 80s and 90s, but the Army turned it down b/c they felt they didn't need it. Now they want it, and are having a hard time getting someone to sell it.

Nuclear submarines are not only difficult and costly to build but also to maintain. Personally, I don't think the Pakistan Navy is interested in nuclear submarines, but rather in submarines capable of firing nuclear missiles and provide some sort of second strike capability. The Pakistan Navy has never aspired to a blue-water navy; they've always aimed for a green-water navy. This is a wise decision, considering their financial constraints.

 

[hyperman]

Nuclear submarines are not only difficult and costly to build but also to maintain. Personally, I don't think the Pakistan Navy is interested in nuclear submarines, but rather in submarines capable of firing nuclear missiles and provide some sort of second strike capability. The Pakistan Navy has never aspired to a blue-water navy; they've always aimed for a green-water navy. This is a wise decision, considering their financial constraints.

Second strike credibility is not the same with a conventional submarine that needs to surface and cannot stay submerged over long periods like Nuclear subs and cannot be built as big/efficiently as a nuclear submarine for ballistic missiles subs, which are large and require a lot of power. Its not necessarily about deep sea operations althought Pakistan is building ICMBs so perhaps their outlook is changing there as well.

Pakistan did ask for Nuclear Subs from China but idk if it was successful.

Pakistan Requested Nuclear Weapons Assistance From China in Talks Over Strategic Port

In bilateral talks this year, Pakistan asked China for a nuclear second-strike capability in exchange for the Gwadar Port—a demand that was rebuffed by China

www.dropsitenews.com

 

[Falcon26]

I don't think they do, he is mistaken, they have build a nuclear program but submarine propulsion is tricky.

Yes, a miniaturized nuclear reactor will be no major issue for Pakistan. Pakistan has manufactured all types of nuclear reactors and has carried out research on miniaturized nuclear reactor for many years. This is common knowledge.

@Quwa @arslank01

 

[Quwa]

Yes, a miniaturized nuclear reactor will be no major issue for Pakistan. Pakistan has manufactured all types of nuclear reactors and has carried out research on miniaturized nuclear reactor for many years. This is common knowledge.

@Quwa @arslank01

It's basically an issue of funding and time. Pakistan has the technical capacity to design and develop a miniature reactor. Heck, PAEC even floated the idea of an indigenous SMR design some years ago. They have the capacity, but the nature of the work would demand a lot of funding and a lot of time, not just to develop a reactor, but then to qualify it for naval use, which has its own set of issues.

 

[Falcon26]

It's basically an issue of funding and time. Pakistan has the technical capacity to design and develop a miniature reactor. Heck, PAEC even floated the idea of an indigenous SMR design some years ago. They have the capacity, but the nature of the work would demand a lot of funding and a lot of time, not just to develop a reactor, but then to qualify it for naval use, which has its own set of issues.

Yes, the technical aspect of the reactor design and production isn’t an issue. The issue, as with all things with Pakistan, is funding. That and Pakistan’s limited ability to design a a credible submarine - but this is where Turkey comes in. If Pakistan can focus on the nuclear reactor aspect, Turkey can easily take care of everything else. Pakistan has been building all types of nuclear reactors since the late 1960s. The Knowledge and technical know how is there. In fact, talk of Pakistani nuclear submarine was quite active during Musharraf’s era.

 

[Quwa]

Yes, the technical aspect of the reactor design and production isn’t an issue. The issue, as with all things with Pakistan, is funding. That and Pakistan’s limited ability to design a a credible submarine - but this is where Turkey comes in. If Pakistan can focus on the nuclear reactor aspect, Turkey can easily take care of everything else. Pakistan has been building all types of nuclear reactors since the late 1960s. The Knowledge and technical know how is there. In fact, talk of Pakistani nuclear submarine was quite active during Musharraf’s era.

Just to be clear, I'd say that the capacity to pursue such a project exists, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's easy or trivial for us. We would run into a lot of technical issues, but the difference with our nuclear base (versus aerospace, for example) is that we have the people to overcome problems if they get enough funding and time.

Turkiye can bankroll it for sure, absolutely. Of all the things we have, nuclear is legit and has the potential to be world class. It's just up to Ankara on whether it can face sanctions heat from the U.S. I can't overstate how much of a risk it would be for them to spend on our nuclear program-the US sanctions regime is a big deal.

Perhaps if the world becomes more bilaterally-focused (where the Turks create new markets for trade outside of America's rules-based order), I can see them (and the Gulf) leverage our nuclear capacity more seriously.

 

[Quwa]

I think a good analogue to our nuclear program is the Turkish aerospace program, especially around 10 years ago. Back then, the Turks understood that they had the underlying capacity to develop and build their own NGFA. However, it took them a lot of resources and some key intermediary steps (such as Hurjet) to roll out a prototype. They still need at least a decade before they can clear a true ITAR-free NGFA, but getting there requires continuous funding, time, and partners.

That's where Pakistan is at with reactor technology in general: PAEC et.al could potentially get a design up for testing, experiments, etc., in a decade or so, but it'll need another decade to perfect it, and then, it can start mass-producing a serviceable system.

The difference, sadly, is that unlike the Turks and aerospace, our leaders aren't doubling down on nuclear in the same way. In other words, NASTP or PMSTP or whatever should've all been money for nuclear R&D. If we advance on nuclear R&D, we could trade it for Turkiye's aerospace tech, South Africa's munitions tech, Ukraine's engine tech, or Poland's industrial tech and so on. @Falcon26 @arslank01

 

[hyperman]

Yes, a miniaturized nuclear reactor will be no major issue for Pakistan. Pakistan has manufactured all types of nuclear reactors and has carried out research on miniaturized nuclear reactor for many years. This is common knowledge.

@Quwa @arslank01

Actually its quite difficult. And a very major issue.

Pakistan operates 6 commercial reactors, all of which were built by China, and 2 research reactors from 1965 supplied by the US and another in 1980 supplied by China I believe.

The other facilities are nuclear weapons facilities.

Miniaturized nuclear reactors are not easy, they are very different from those listed above, and Nuclear marine propulsion for a submarine is even harder b/c they need to be incredibly quiet and effecient. Not at all an easy job.