Turkish Naval Programs

[Falcon26]

Actually its quite difficult. And a very major issue.

Pakistan operates 6 commercial reactors, all of which were built by China, and 2 research reactors from 1965 supplied by the US and another in 1980 supplied by China I believe.

The other facilities are nuclear weapons facilities.

Miniaturized nuclear reactors are not easy, they are very different from those listed above, and Nuclear marine propulsion for a submarine is even harder b/c they need to be incredibly quiet and effecient. Not at all an easy job.

You’re wrong - you are referring to Pakistan’s initial research and civilian reactors which have been built with foreign aid. Pakistan’s nuclear weapon program and associated reactors is entirely indigenous - both its plutonium and uranium based reactors. In fact, most recently Pakistan produced an advanced research reactor at PINSTECH. Miniature nuclear reactor design, especially marine based, is quite complex work but for Pakistan, not insurmountable. The key question is strategic foresight by the Pakistani political and military class to pursue such a path. It’s fundamentally a financial issue - not technical.

 

[Oublious]

Ther will be Kaan naval designed for the navy.

Director of Naval Forces Design Project Office Assoc. Prof. Dr. Colonel Uçar:

We follow the development of KAAN, our national pride, with great appreciation, and we wish to have it on our National Aircraft Carrier. KAAN is designed to take off and land from conventional runways. Special modifications are required to be able to operate from an aircraft carrier. We continue to exchange information with TAI so that the naval version of KAAN, which is currently in prototype production, can take off and land from our ship in case of production.

 

[hyperman]

You’re wrong - you are referring to Pakistan’s initial research and civilian reactors which have been built with foreign aid. Pakistan’s nuclear weapon program and associated reactors is entirely indigenous - both its plutonium and uranium based reactors. In fact, most recently Pakistan produced an advanced research reactor at PINSTECH. Miniature nuclear reactor design, especially marine based, is quite complex work but for Pakistan, not insurmountable. The key question is strategic foresight by the Pakistani political and military class to pursue such a path. It’s fundamentally a financial issue - not technical.

"The other facilities are nuclear weapons facilities."

I literally mentioned the other facilities. Those are nuclear weapons production facilities.

The reactors I'm speaking of a miniature reactors for producing power for a submarine, very different matter.

It is most certainly a technical issue. Hell its been a technical issue for both India and China, how is Pakistan going to produce a nuclear reactor for a submarine, note its not just the power aspect, its a quietness aspect.

It takes about 10-15 years to build a nuclear submarine design from scratch. And about $5+ Billion dollars.

 

[Falcon26]

"The other facilities are nuclear weapons facilities."

I literally mentioned the other facilities. Those are nuclear weapons production facilities.

The reactors I'm speaking of a miniature reactors for producing power for a submarine, very different matter.

It is most certainly a technical issue. Hell its been a technical issue for both India and China, how is Pakistan going to produce a nuclear reactor for a submarine, note its not just the power aspect, its a quietness aspect.

It takes about 10-15 years to build a nuclear submarine design from scratch. And about $5+ Billion dollars.

I think we are speaking over each other. Let me make couple things clear:

1. Pakistan’s strategic weapons establishment is the same one that would produce the miniature nuclear submarine reactor. It won’t be a separate entity. The Strategic Plans Division and the organizations that come under its purview have decades of experience building nuclear reactors for Pakistan’s nuclear weapons program. The miniature nuclear reactor for the submarine won’t be any different.

2. Building a submarine nuclear reactor is a highly complex and technical work. It’s never without challenges, but as I said, these challenges aren’t insurmountable for a country with the experience and nuclear technology history of Pakistan.

3. A nuclear powered submarine could take 10-15 years and cost billions - but a nuclear reactor for a submarine won’t take 10-15 years or cost the arbitrary figure of $5-billion you have mentioned. That time frame and cost is for the entire submarine - not just the reactor.

Hope that makes things clearer and I hope you study the history and capabilities of Pakistan’s nuclear community rather than relying on inaccurate online sources. Couple important books have already been mentioned on this thread.

 

[Hussain]

"The other facilities are nuclear weapons facilities."

I literally mentioned the other facilities. Those are nuclear weapons production facilities.

The reactors I'm speaking of a miniature reactors for producing power for a submarine, very different matter.

It is most certainly a technical issue. Hell its been a technical issue for both India and China, how is Pakistan going to produce a nuclear reactor for a submarine, note its not just the power aspect, its a quietness aspect.

It takes about 10-15 years to build a nuclear submarine design from scratch. And about $5+ Billion dollars.

all I can say is, we have been on it, for quite a few years.......

 

[hyperman]

I think we are speaking over each other. Let me make couple things clear:

1. Pakistan’s strategic weapons establishment is the same one that would produce the miniature nuclear submarine reactor. It won’t be a separate entity. The Strategic Plans Division and the organizations that come under its purview have decades of experience building nuclear reactors for Pakistan’s nuclear weapons program. The miniature nuclear reactor for the submarine won’t be any different.

2. Building a submarine nuclear reactor is a highly complex and technical work. It’s never without challenges, but as I said, these challenges aren’t insurmountable for a country with the experience and nuclear technology history of Pakistan.

3. A nuclear powered submarine could take 10-15 years and cost billions - but a nuclear reactor for a submarine won’t take 10-15 years or cost the arbitrary figure of $5-billion you have mentioned. That time frame and cost is for the entire submarine - not just the reactor.

Hope that makes things clearer and I hope you study the history and capabilities of Pakistan’s nuclear community rather than relying on inaccurate online sources. Couple important books have already been mentioned on this thread.

Pakistan doesn't even build its own nuclear power plants, it gets them from China. And you are acting like b/c they built a nuclear reactor for generating plutonium now suddenly building a nuclear submarine reactor is the same thing? Do you know how long it took for China and India to build their own nuclear submarines? And they had far more resources than Pakistan, India also gained help from the Soviets/Russia.

It took China till 2006 with the Type 93 to build a halfway decent Submarine they could reasonably deploy, after their initial attempt with the Type 91 class, which was more a science experiment than a viable submarine, as its performance was worse(noise wise) than that of US/Soviet subs from the 1950s/1960s.

This thing is extremely difficult and even harder without help.

 

[Falcon26]

Pakistan doesn't even build its own nuclear power plants, it gets them from China. And you are acting like b/c they built a nuclear reactor for generating plutonium now suddenly building a nuclear submarine reactor is the same thing? Do you know how long it took for China and India to build their own nuclear submarines? And they had far more resources than Pakistan, India also gained help from the Soviets/Russia.

It took China till 2006 with the Type 93 to build a halfway decent Submarine they could reasonably deploy, after their initial attempt with the Type 91 class, which was more a science experiment than a viable submarine, as its performance was worse(noise wise) than that of US/Soviet subs from the 1950s/1960s.

This thing is extremely difficult and even harder without help.

Pretty ridiculous stuff, especially coming from a supposed moderator.

Pakistan not building nuclear power plants is not an issue of technical deficiency but rather economic limitation. Pakistan doesn’t need to build and design a nuclear power plant when it come efficiently acquire off the shelf.

Nuclear reactors for military use can’t be readily acquired off the shelf so Pakistan has to manufacture themselves.

This is an important distinction to bear in mind instead conflating things that are unrelated. You can’t take Pakistan’s nuclear power plants and extrapolate conclusions on Pakistanis strategic nculear programs. Totally unrelated.

Finally, quite hilarious for Turk to be making this weird argument that since it took country A an X amount of time to do one thing, then country B has to take the same amount of time too. Going by your logic, since China took decades to build the J-20 and 5th generation engines, Turkey must also take decades to go through the same process.

Totally ridiculous and frankly childish argument from a moderator.

 

[hyperman]

Pretty ridiculous stuff, especially coming from a supposed moderator.

Pakistan not building nuclear power plants is not an issue of technical deficiency but rather economic limitation. Pakistan doesn’t need to build and design a nuclear power plant when it come efficiently acquire off the shelf.

Nuclear reactors for military use can’t be readily acquired off the shelf so Pakistan has to manufacture themselves.

This is an important distinction to bear in mind instead conflating things that are unrelated. You can’t take Pakistan’s nuclear power plants and extrapolate conclusions on Pakistanis strategic nculear programs. Totally unrelated.

Finally, quite hilarious for Turk to be making this weird argument that since it took country A an X amount of time to do one thing, then country B has to take the same amount of time too. Going by your logic, since China took decades to build the J-20 and 5th generation engines, Turkey must also take decades to go through the same process.

Totally ridiculous and frankly childish argument from a moderator.

Turkey was a partner in the F-16 program and the F-35 program for decades. China did not have the luxuries Turkey had.

enriching uranium is a lot different from building a nuclear reactor for a submarine.

I would be shocked if Pakistan built a viable nuclear submarine on its own without Chinese assistance.

Its you who is doing comical reduction of, ok we built nukes, so now thats the same as having the ability to build nuclear submarines b/c it has the word nuclear in it. You are not aware of the complexities involved or the pitfalls that we saw China(and arguably still going through) to build a modern nuclear submarine. it was 2006 before China had a modern nuclear submarine, and even then its quite noisy inn2006 when they comissioned the Type 93, it was still noisier than Soviet era submarines and the Soviet Union had been gone for 2 decades at that time, just to show you the gap, and this is on top of the Chinese money and experience with the Type 91.

Put simply, its not easy to build a modern nuclear submarine reactor, just b/c you built a bomb.

 

[Falcon26]

Turkey was a partner in the F-16 program and the F-35 program for decades. China did not have the luxuries Turkey had.

enriching uranium is a lot different from building a nuclear reactor for a submarine.

I would be shocked if Pakistan built a viable nuclear submarine on its own without Chinese assistance.

Its you who is doing comical reduction of, ok we built nukes, so now thats the same as having the ability to build nuclear submarines b/c it has the word nuclear in it. You are not aware of the complexities involved or the pitfalls that we saw China(and arguably still going through) to build a modern nuclear submarine. it was 2006 before China had a modern nuclear submarine, and even then its quite noisy inn2006 when they comissioned the Type 93, it was still noisier than Soviet era submarines and the Soviet Union had been gone for 2 decades at that time, just to show you the gap, and this is on top of the Chinese money and experience with the Type 91.

Put simply, its not easy to build a modern nuclear submarine reactor, just b/c you built a bomb.

As I said, ridiculous is the only way to describe your belligerence.

For the record, Pakistan has impressive nuclear technology know how outside Chinese assistance. To hyphenate Pakistan’s nuclear know how with China is mischievous to say the least. Turkey’s F-16 involvement is nothing compared to Pakistan’s indigenous nuclear program. Quite laughable to make that argument, but you’ve been making one laughable claim after another.

And yes, almost EVERY country that has made nuclear bomb has went on to make a nuclear powered submarine! Heck, even North Korea, whose nuclear program is rumored to have benefited from Pakistani assistance, is currently building a nuclear powered submarine.

The only two nuclear countries that don’t operate a nuclear powered submarines are Israel ( no obvious reason to field one given state of its primary opponents) and Pakistan. So yes, there’s a direct correlation between having the bomb and fielding a nuclear submarine.

Ps,

From the very first post on this topic to now, my focus is on a naval nuclear reactor NOT a submarine. I have clearly made the case that Pakistan doesn’t have the knowledge base to indigenously design and build a submarine. Comprehension is an important skill for moderators to have!!!

 

[hyperman]

As I said, ridiculous is the only way to describe your belligerence.

For the record, Pakistan has impressive nuclear technology know how outside Chinese assistance. To hyphenate Pakistan’s nuclear know how with China is mischievous to say the least. Turkey’s F-16 involvement is nothing compared to Pakistan’s indigenous nuclear program. Quite laughable to make that argument, but you’ve been making one laughable claim after another.

And yes, almost EVERY country that has made nuclear bomb has went on to make a nuclear powered submarine! Heck, even North Korea, whose nuclear program is rumored to have benefited from Pakistani assistance, is currently building a nuclear powered submarine.

The only two nuclear countries that don’t operate a nuclear powered submarines are Israel ( no obvious reason to field one given state of its primary opponents) and Pakistan. So yes, there’s a direct correlation between having the bomb and fielding a nuclear submarine.

Ps,

From the very first post on this topic to now, my focus is on a naval nuclear reactor NOT a submarine. I have clearly made the case that Pakistan doesn’t have the knowledge base to indigenously design and build a submarine. Comprehension is an important skill for moderators to have!!!

Well North Korea's missile tech far exceeds Pakistan(and frankly quite a few countries), and we don't actually have any evidence of North Korea currently being successful in building a nuclear sub, the only thing shown so far has been a ballistic missile sub, conventionally powered. but regardless of that, I'm talking about a modern nuclear submarine reactor. Its a different ballgame.

@Deino What do you think the Prospects are of Pakistan building a modern Nuclear Submarine reactor like the S9G or the OK-650 without any input from the outside from China or another country.

 

[hyperman]

Turkey’s F-16 involvement is nothing compared to Pakistan’s indigenous nuclear program.

You know building a modern Turbofan is more complicated than building a bomb right? lol

 

[Falcon26]

Well North Korea's missile tech far exceeds Pakistan(and frankly quite a few countries), and we don't actually have any evidence of North Korea currently being successful in building a nuclear sub, the only thing shown so far has been a ballistic missile sub, conventionally powered. but regardless of that, I'm talking about a modern nuclear submarine reactor. Its a different ballgame.

@Deino What do you think the Prospects are of Pakistan building a modern Nuclear Submarine reactor like the S9G or the OK-650 without any input from the outside from China or another country.

You’ve to stick to the parameters of the discussion - not move the goalpost of the discussion at whim. We’re talking about nuclear technology and you conveniently jump to missile technology. Pakistan assisted North Korea’s nuclear program and North Korea is currently working on a nuclear powered submarines according to South Korean intelligence and even per North Korea itself!

Based on your logic, Pakistan would have never built a nuclear bomb. You underestimate Pakistan’s technical capacity in relation to nuclear technology. Pakistani scientist has won the Nobel Prize in nuclear physics. Dr Munir Khan, who many considered the real father of Pakistan’s nuclear program, led the IAEC’s reactor design bureau for many years! So many other illustrious figures. You discount all of this either because you lack real Knowledge of Pakistan’s nuclear history or discounting them based on bias.

 

[Falcon26]

You know building a modern Turbofan is more complicated than building a bomb right? lol

Then how come Turkey isn’t building its own nuclear power reactors instead of relying on Russia to help build it for them? I mean Turkey has ‘mastered’ building turbofan engines, right? Lol

 

[Deino]

…

@Deino What do you think the Prospects are of Pakistan building a modern Nuclear Submarine reactor like the S9G or the OK-650 without any input from the outside from China or another country.

No chance at all

 

[hyperman]

Based on your logic, Pakistan would have never built a nuclear bomb.

I didn't say that, I said nuclear reactor for submarine propulsion.

Building a nuclear bomb for most countries is not difficult the barrier is political not necessarily technical FYI.

Why don't you respond to Deino, he is far more blunt in his assessment, I just said its very difficult, he is straight up saying no chance at all. lol

Its important to have a coherent rational outlook in capabilities and not blow smoke up your own @$$.

Nuclear submarine propulsion is insanely difficult, not necessarily just b/c its a reactor, but it has to be a small reactor with the power capacity needed and thats not even the hardest part, the hardest part is building it to be DEAD QUIET, otherwise its useless for a submarine.

I gave you tangible examples of how it took till 2006 for China to build a somewhat viable nuclear submarine(and its reactor), and yet it was still noisier than Submarines made by the Soviets who collapsed 2 decades before that.

Thats a tangible example, you responded with OMG you Don't Know We Have a PhD Nobel Prize winner. Like get serious man.

I'm not even a hater or anything, Infact I want Pakistan to develop a nuclear submarine submarine, but if you think this thing is easy, you have no idea.

The hardest part of the nuclear submarine is the reactor and to make it quiet, the vessel itself is not as difficult, if someone has experience building submarines, they can easily make the shell the reactor goes around to power. There are many submarine builders, but not many nuclear submarine builders. Germany, Spain, Sweden, Italy, Netherlands Japan, South Korea, they can all build submarines. None have built nuclear submarines yet, even in Japan's case which has an extensive Nuclear program as well as South Korea which also has a budding nuclear program. Its not simply a lack of political will, b/c the South Koreans certainly have the political will.