Türkiye, Pakistan deepen defense ties with KAAN jet export, joint helicopter project

[maverick]

The Indians are scratching their heads. Also with naval acquisitions. Frigates and subs. Where is Pakistan getting all this money from?

The land mafia establishment enterprises have parallel economy most likely equal to pakistani economy, i suspect they are paying for it or, they are giving away from mineral reserves,

 

[Waz]

There will be no Chinese engine on the KAAN I said this a while back before such articles. The Chinese will not allow it, and the Turks have their own engine project making great headway.
Anyway the J-35 and KAAN being in the PAF will certainly make it incredibly formidable beyond the v IAF scenario.

 

[K2RULEZ]

There will be no Chinese engine on the KAAN I said this a while back before such articles. The Chinese will not allow it, and the Turks have their own engine project making great headway.
Anyway the J-35 and KAAN being in the PAF will certainly make it incredibly formidable beyond the v IAF scenario.

That is true. Türkiye is making impressive progress. The engine will be Turkish most likely.

 

[Michael]

You guys are missing the point, the Chinese rightfully so will not allow their engine tech to be on a Turkish platform given the Pan-Turkish turkey has been trying to project into Central Asia and Xingjing. I wouldn’t give the Turks a single piece of my tech given how much part of nato are they and the damages they’ve created in the Middle East.

Uh, you're not aware of the problems between China and Turkey. The problems of Central Asia and the Middle East have nothing to do with China-Turkey relations. Since Pakistan has close relations with Turkey, I don't suggest that we discuss this issue in depth.

We can discuss Turkish-Pakistani military cooperation as well as Chinese-Pakistani military cooperation. That is all.

In short, let's avoid the topic of military cooperation between China and Turkey and the possibility of trilateral military cooperation between China, Turkey and Pakistan. (Lower level military trade is out of this scope)

Yes KAAN will comes with Turkish Engine. Time is on PAF side. There is no hurry for KAAN. J35 is here for recent future needs. Pakistan is planning for local assembly line for KAAN. That's a really long term plan. I would say it could be 8-10 years easily.

PAF is perfectly capable of having both KAAN and J-35.

But I don't think it's a good idea. The best option is one or the other.

 

[K2RULEZ]

You guys are missing the point, the Chinese rightfully so will not allow their engine tech to be on a Turkish platform given the Pan-Turkish turkey has been trying to project into Central Asia and Xingjing. I wouldn’t give the Turks a single piece of my tech given how much part of nato are they and the damages they’ve created in the Middle East.

That is understandable and we fully respect Chinese decision.

 

[SiliconBit (silicon0000)]

PAF is perfectly capable of having both KAAN and J-35.

But I don't think it's a good idea. The best option is one or the other.

Dear As per my understanding, both have their own place in PAF doctrine. They are not competing in PAF. Infact have different induction timelines too.

May be some other time (When I have time) I will explain it in details.

 

[UKBengali]

It's infinitely close to 0% likely.
If you go on Chinese social media platforms, you'll know.
Chinese people, 99.999999% are against this proposal.

Random Chinese people on the internet do not decide on these things.

KAAN is not likely to be available for export till the mid-2030s and by then WS-10C will be old technology.

China is unlikely to refuse a Pakistani request to release WS-10C to Turkey to integrate onto a Pakistani version of KAAN. This request will only come if the Turkish engine project is being massively delayed due to technical issues.

It is more a time, effort and money issues rather than China saying no.

 

[UKBengali]

Dear As per my understanding, both have their own place in PAF doctrine. They are not competing in PAF. Infact have different induction timelines too.

May be some other time (When I have time) I will explain it in details.

Even if KAAN is inferior to J-35A, countries like Pakistan will buy it for strategic reasons.

 

[Michael]

Dear As per my understanding, both have their own place in PAF doctrine. They are not competing in PAF. Infact have different induction timelines too.

May be some other time (When I have time) I will explain it in details.

I'm not talking about their time in service.

5th Gen fighters are very expensive to maintain. It's whole life cycle maintenance cost is several times the purchase cost.
If there are fewer fighters, the maintenance cost increases. the KAAN and the J-35 are two completely different systems. The 5th Gen fighter that runs both systems has a much higher maintenance cost.
Even if we don't consider the cost of buying KAAN+J-35, PAF will have a hard time sustaining them with its annual budget.

Random Chinese people on the internet do not decide on these things.
KAAN is not likely to be available for export till the mid-2030s and by then WS-10C will be old technology.
China is unlikely to refuse a Pakistani request to release WS-10C to Turkey to integrate onto a Pakistani version of KAAN. This request will only come if the Turkish engine project is being massively delayed due to technical issues.
It is more a time, effort and money issues rather than China saying no.

This issue will not be discussed in depth. It has no possibilities.

 

[Bentley777]

I dont think so paf is getting kaan due to engine issue same as atak helis. 2nd they announced their own pfx and getting j35. Where is the room for Kaan. If some how turk gets their own engine ready then there is slight chance.

 

[UKBengali]

I'm not talking about their time in service.

5th Gen fighters are very expensive to maintain. It's whole life cycle maintenance cost is several times the purchase cost.
If there are fewer fighters, the maintenance cost increases. the KAAN and the J-35 are two completely different systems. The 5th Gen fighter that runs both systems has a much higher maintenance cost.
Even if we don't consider the cost of buying KAAN+J-35, PAF will have a hard time sustaining them with its annual budget.

PAF may only be looking at 30-40 each of J-35A and KAAN.

They can save costs by sharing as much of the support systems like ground radars, AWACs and satellite communication.

 

[SiliconBit (silicon0000)]

I'm not talking about their time in service.

5th Gen fighters are very expensive to maintain. It's whole life cycle maintenance cost is several times the purchase cost.
If there are fewer fighters, the maintenance cost increases. the KAAN and the J-35 are two completely different systems. The 5th Gen fighter that runs both systems has a much higher maintenance cost.
Even if we don't consider the cost of buying KAAN+J-35, PAF will have a hard time sustaining them with its annual budget.


This issue will not be discussed in depth. It has no possibilities.

Dear Time in service is very important consideration.

The Pakistani economy is significantly more complex and nuanced than classical economic models can fully capture. Don't worry about Money thing when it comes to Defence Expenses. Even Indians are still skeptical about where Pakistan is getting the money for defense purchases, especially considering they are seeking financial assistance from the international community. Not many can understand this.

Also, the KAAN framework, with its planned induction and timelines, and the way it's planned induction is, offers a potentially viable path forward. This approach could be more economically efficient. Actually, KAAN will be absorbed much more easily than the J35.

It's important to acknowledge that Pakistan's substantial defense expenditure diverts resources from economic development. This misallocation of resources can be considered a significant blunder, but that's how Pakistan has always is.

 

[Michael]

PAF may only be looking at 30-40 each of J-35A and KAAN.
They can save costs by sharing as much of the support systems like ground radars, AWACs and satellite communication.

For that number, PAF's military budget can't afford to support such a fleet of fighters. The funding gap is very large.

 

[SiliconBit (silicon0000)]

For that number, PAF's military budget can't afford to support such a fleet of fighters. The funding gap is very large.

My guess is KAAN numbers will be around 90-100 and delivery will be during 2035-45 period or even till 2050.

View KAAN as the successor to PFX.

 

[Goku-Kun]

Uh, you're not aware of the problems between China and Turkey. The problems of Central Asia and the Middle East have nothing to do with China-Turkey relations. Since Pakistan has close relations with Turkey, I don't suggest that we discuss this issue in depth.

We can discuss Turkish-Pakistani military cooperation as well as Chinese-Pakistani military cooperation. That is all.

In short, let's avoid the topic of military cooperation between China and Turkey and the possibility of trilateral military cooperation between China, Turkey and Pakistan. (Lower level military trade is out of this scope)


PAF is perfectly capable of having both KAAN and J-35.

But I don't think it's a good idea. The best option is one or the other.

KAAN's RCS is I believe better than J35's and is believed to be around 0.003m2 whereas J35 has significantly larger RCS. So I believe that J35 is just a stopgap til Pakistan's procurement of KAAN.