US-China relations vis a vi Vietnam in the 1980s?

[FuturePAF]

The 1980s were an interesting decade. The Soviet Union was still the other “pole” in international geo-politics and it was after the American war in Vietnam of 1965-1975 well as the Chinese war in Vietnam of 1979, which ended as a futile effort.

Considering Pakistan’s problems with Afghanistan, I drew some parallels with how China viewed Vietnam.

Considering the approachment between China and the US under Deng and Reagan respectively, I was wondering, what kind of cooperation there was between the two countries vis a vi Vietnam?

Information is scarce and we have to keep in mind that the Sino-Soviet split had grown deeper in the 80s, while China was not yet the economic power it is today, but US investment started slowly flowing into China in that era.

What lessons can Pakistan, as it considers how broad operation Istehkam should be, learn from how China went about handling its relations with Vietnam, in 1979 and through the 80s?

Especially ahead of any eventual recognition of the Talib government, in decades, like Vietnam was in 1994 by the US, or a few years (you never know if Trump is in office again).

 

[Alter_Ego]

AFAIK Deng wanted to teach Vietnamese a lesson for getting too bold. He never wanted to occupy Vietnam, just to give them a little shaking. America had no objection to that of course.

But deeper details on how the US and China kept the Soviets in check in Vietnam is a interesting topic. Curious myself. China didnt have a NAVY to speak of, so America must definately played main role in the maritime game. China put more pressure along the Soviet and Vietnamese land borders.

 

[Michael]

The 1980s were an interesting decade. The Soviet Union was still the other “pole” in international geo-politics and it was after the American war in Vietnam of 1965-1975 well as the Chinese war in Vietnam of 1979, which ended as a futile effort.

Considering Pakistan’s problems with Afghanistan, I drew some parallels with how China viewed Vietnam.

Considering the approachment between China and the US under Deng and Reagan respectively, I was wondering, what kind of cooperation there was between the two countries vis a vi Vietnam?

Information is scarce and we have to keep in mind that the Sino-Soviet split had grown deeper in the 80s, while China was not yet the economic power it is today, but US investment started slowly flowing into China in that era.

What lessons can Pakistan, as it considers how broad operation Istehkam should be, learn from how China went about handling its relations with Vietnam, in 1979 and through the 80s?

Especially ahead of any eventual recognition of the Talib government, in decades, like Vietnam was in 1994 by the US, or a few years (you never know if Trump is in office again).

Do you want to study this period of history? Do you still hope to gain some inspiration from this history?
At the time of this history, there were many means by which humans could truly record it. So, there is a lot of relevant information available. This is not a secret, all relevant documents are public.
In that era, I was still a child, but I could already remember these things.
We once had a comprehensive military education textbook that detailed how to respond to various military scenarios. For example, when a bombing alert comes, the correct response process and actions should be taken. How to create an emergency safety shelter......................

 

[FuturePAF]

Do you want to study this period of history? Do you still hope to gain some inspiration from this history?
At the time of this history, there were many means by which humans could truly record it. So, there is a lot of relevant information available. This is not a secret, all relevant documents are public.
In that era, I was still a child, but I could already remember these things.
We once had a comprehensive military education textbook that detailed how to respond to various military scenarios. For example, when a bombing alert comes, the correct response process and actions should be taken. How to create an emergency safety shelter......................

Yes, I think studying that period would be very helpful in drawing the closest parallel for how conflicts develop and can be dealt with appropriately. If you have any references you recommend, please do share them.

 

[Michael]

Yes, I think studying that period would be very helpful in drawing the closest parallel for how conflicts develop and can be dealt with appropriately. If you have any references you recommend, please do share them.

The information about the war and its impact is huge. The vast majority of it should be found on the Internet.

You might try checking out Wikipedia. My approach to Wikipedia is that I will look at the various different language versions, using translation software to convert them, rather than just looking at my native language version. The content of the different language versions is very different. For example, for the Sino-Vietnamese War, the Chinese version is more in favour of the Chinese position; the Vietnamese version is more in favour of the Vietnamese position; and the English version is more ambiguous. I will look for common ground in the different language versions to serve as a presupposition of truth. For two completely different records of the same event, then look for other clues to find the truth.
You can try using this method first and then we'll discuss it.
Almost all the information I could find was in Chinese. I'm not sure you can read them.

 

[FuturePAF]

The information about the war and its impact is huge. The vast majority of it should be found on the Internet.

You might try checking out Wikipedia. My approach to Wikipedia is that I will look at the various different language versions, using translation software to convert them, rather than just looking at my native language version. The content of the different language versions is very different. For example, for the Sino-Vietnamese War, the Chinese version is more in favour of the Chinese position; the Vietnamese version is more in favour of the Vietnamese position; and the English version is more ambiguous. I will look for common ground in the different language versions to serve as a presupposition of truth. For two completely different records of the same event, then look for other clues to find the truth.
You can try using this method first and then we'll discuss it.
Almost all the information I could find was in Chinese. I'm not sure you can read them.

For Chinese, I usually run it through google translate. Do you recommend an alternative translation site?

Also, not so much the ‘79 war but the aftermath; Vietnam in the 80s. The three waves of explusions of ethnic Chinese from Vietnam, I know children of those expelled as well as children of ARVN officers, so I hear context of the experience from them.

I’m also curious about the economic transformation of Vietnam in the 80s. How they tried to do the standard communist thing around farming but gave in to small privatization to raise crop yields because farmers had more incentives.

It seemed fascinating that human nature can’t be beat by old school communist ideology.

 

[Michael]

For Chinese, I usually run it through google translate. Do you recommend an alternative translation site?

Also, not so much the ‘79 war but the aftermath; Vietnam in the 80s. The three waves of explosions of ethnic Chinese from Vietnam, I know children of those expelled as well as children of ARVN officers, so I hear context of the experience from them.

I’m also curious about the economic transformation of Vietnam in the 80s. How they tried to do the standard communist thing around farming but gave in to small privatization to raise crop yields because farmers had more incentives.

It seemed fascinating that human nature can’t be beat by old school communist ideology.

If you want to study history, especially modern and contemporary history, you need to first let go of all your preconceived notions. Inherent notions here include, but are not limited to: country, ethnicity, religion, culture, beliefs .............. You just need to retain humanity.

When you can't let go of them, you'll go looking for evidence with conclusions and you'll end up with the history you want but that isn't true and objective. For example: if you don't like old school communism, you will find a lot of evidence to prove yourself right. But you'll never find the meaning of their existence and their true evolution, and you'll never be able to understand what the people who created them were really thinking and the objective circumstances when they created these theories. At the same time, due to subjective factors, you will selectively believe in some things and give up on others, and it doesn't matter if they are true or false anymore. You are no longer interested in identifying them.

The more things you can let go of, the more you gain.

For Wikipedia, I usually just use my browser's translation function. I use Microsoft Edge.
The background factors of the Sino-Vietnamese War were very complex and involved very much underlying political philosophy. You can learn some of that first and we'll have a discussion on specific issues.

 

[FuturePAF]

If you want to study history, especially modern and contemporary history, you need to first let go of all your preconceived notions. Inherent notions here include, but are not limited to: country, ethnicity, religion, culture, beliefs .............. You just need to retain humanity.

When you can't let go of them, you'll go looking for evidence with conclusions and you'll end up with the history you want but that isn't true and objective. For example: if you don't like old school communism, you will find a lot of evidence to prove yourself right. But you'll never find the meaning of their existence and their true evolution, and you'll never be able to understand what the people who created them were really thinking and the objective circumstances when they created these theories. At the same time, due to subjective factors, you will selectively believe in some things and give up on others, and it doesn't matter if they are true or false anymore. You are no longer interested in identifying them.

The more things you can let go of, the more you gain.

For Wikipedia, I usually just use my browser's translation function. I use Microsoft Edge.
The background factors of the Sino-Vietnamese War were very complex and involved very much underlying political philosophy. You can learn some of that first and we'll have a discussion on specific issues.

It’s not about liking or disliking something, we would be dishonest if we didn’t say we don’t have preferences, but it’s about setting things aside for the sake/duration of studying a subject objectively, from the perspective of its architects.

Cognitive dissonance; I can hold two opposing views in my head, but I need to acknowledge, as any other student of history, where my biases lay.

Both China and vietnam abandoned what has been traditionally said to be “old school communism” for a version that works better for them. It is indeed this evolution that is interesting to study.

I will look at some Wikipedia articles, from Chinese and Vietnamese language versions and will come back to you, should I find something I wasn’t aware of, but good points on how to find new references.