US imposes sanctions on suppliers to Pakistan’s ballistic missile programme

[Lulldapull]

Dude, please let me help you in this

The ru uki war didn't start with only missiles and drones did it

Can you successfully win a conflict only with missiles and drones

What about air superiority ?

These questions all have their context depending on aims and so many factors

But I agree wth you that Iran is plausibly ahead of Pak in effective drone usage strategies because they have had to be good at it and they have had decades to think about it

Though in net aggregate military capability, which is what Pak needs to counter India, they are more mature and advanced than Iran

Hard to believe you are not listening? Oh bhai after 10,000 Russian tanks, APC’s and Howitzers were destroyed and a similar number for the Uki’s, they both realized that you can’t fight a war like this. Hundreds of billions down the toilet is when they discovered that we can keep on fighting on the cheap using FPVs and Lancets and Shahed drones and cheaper Iranian ballistic missiles and scalps and neptunes, which actually produce results and you don’t lose the crew.

All Russian and uki convetional weapons have been largely destroyed. Russian Black Sea fleet devastated and both Russia and uki’s have local air superiority, but they cant go into each others airspace or risk losing the jet or choppa.

Air superiority is moot. It makes no sense in today’s world. Air defenses make short work of any jet in 2 minutes.

Do you honestly believe our JFs or Al Khalids or VT-4’s type 054’s would fare any better than T-90’s Leopards or any vessel in the Black Sea fleet against Indian ATGMs or Brahmos or Indian equipment against our ATGMs or manpads or our Exocets or Harpoons or RAADs?

Only thing conventional still worth its weight in gold is artillery. It’s the only thing which has consistently worked and smart guided rounds have made all the diff for both sides.

Nothing else from the legacy weapons list.

 

[hussain0216]

Hard to believe you are not listening? Oh bhai after 10,000 Russian tanks, APC’s and Howitzers were destroyed and a similar number for the Uki’s, they both realized that you can’t fight a war like this. Hundreds of billions down the toilet is when they discovered that we can keep on fighting on the cheap using FPVs and Lancets and Shahed drones and cheaper Iranian ballistic missiles and scalps and neptunes, which actually produce results and you don’t lose the crew.

All Russian and uki convetional weapons have been largely destroyed. Russian Black Sea fleet devastated and both Russia and uki’s have local air superiority, but they cant go into each others airspace or risk losing the jet or choppa.

Air superiority is moot. It makes no sense in today’s world. Air defenses make short work of any jet in 2 minutes.

Do you honestly believe our JFs or Al Khalids or VT-4’s type 054’s would fare any better than T-90’s Leopards or any vessel in the Black Sea fleet against Indian ATGMs or Brahmos or Indian equipment against our ATGMs or manpads or our Exocets or Harpoons or RAADs?

Only thing conventional still worth its weight in gold is artillery. It’s the only thing which has consistently worked and smart guided rounds have made all the diff for both sides.

Nothing else from the legacy weapons list.

Missiles, drones and air defense seems to be where war is headed

If anything, I don't think JF17 is a bad option for many air forces or a JF17 like plane that is more affordable, has a quick turnaround time and can be back in the air very quickly
Their is still space for conventional weapons

Pakistan needs to continue it's missile development
We have two superb partners in Turkey and China that can support drone development
We have a mountain load of Bakhtar shikans but I think we now need more modern atgms, their has been talking about this
Our air defense is better then before and it's growing but we need to increase our coverage and systems

 

[Lulldapull]

Mate, let's be honest. IDF has destroyed much of Gaza and Hamas infrastructure but there is international pressure to stop this conflict and bring both sides to the negotiation table. While Hamas put up a significant fight that can be applauded, it was at a great cost to Gaza and its inhabitants and some areas in West Bank even though Houthi and Hezbollah attacked Israel in the process. The stories that I read are shocking and sad at the same time. IDF have also demonstrated the capacity to conduct complex military operations in Syria and have struck targets with great precision as far as in Yemen and Iran. But there are international efforts to prevent a wider war in the region. So let's not assume that others cannot fight coz we have limited showings ourselves besides shouting in forums lol. My point is that IDF is a professional and capable force that can produce results in war irrespective of how it is perceived in some quarters.

The war in Ukraine shows how bad it can get in a war between regional powers. Many countries do not have the capacity to fight like Ukraine and Russia as both sides have shown remarkable levels of resolve thus far.

Legend yaar Israel has already lost the war. Their future is in serious doubt. Iran is carefully weighing its options and planning a coup de grace. Israel won’t survive this.

On the Ru/Uki thing, you are on da money. What we’ve seen is a proxy clash between Ru and NATO. The sheer amount of conventional weapons destroyed on both sides has shocked the rest of the world.

 

[r3alist]

Hard to believe you are not listening? Oh bhai after 10,000 Russian tanks, APC’s and Howitzers were destroyed and a similar number for the Uki’s, they both realized that you can’t fight a war like this. Hundreds of billions down the toilet is when they discovered that we can keep on fighting on the cheap using FPVs and Lancets and Shahed drones and cheaper Iranian ballistic missiles and scalps and neptunes, which actually produce results and you don’t lose the crew.

All Russian and uki convetional weapons have been largely destroyed. Russian Black Sea fleet devastated and both Russia and uki’s have local air superiority, but they cant go into each others airspace or risk losing the jet or choppa.

Air superiority is moot. It makes no sense in today’s world. Air defenses make short work of any jet in 2 minutes.

Do you honestly believe our JFs or Al Khalids or VT-4’s type 054’s would fare any better than T-90’s Leopards or any vessel in the Black Sea fleet against Indian ATGMs or Brahmos or Indian equipment against our ATGMs or manpads or our Exocets or Harpoons or RAADs?

Only thing conventional still worth its weight in gold is artillery. It’s the only thing which has consistently worked and smart guided rounds have made all the diff for both sides.

Nothing else from the legacy weapons list.

Different contexts, different scenarios, I am trying to not make the discussion a moving target

I basically disagree that Iran is very advanced or far ahead of Pak military capability

You are going a bit too far in saying Iran divined the future and have the optimal war fighting strategy as ahead of their time and have the tech for it

They are operating in their context , normal


But Pak has more military maturity and assets than Iran, and more advanced capabilities technology wise in general

Finally, and you are quite cute with this, could Iran air defenses do much against jf17, for example? Not Pak Vs India lol
I think a third tier conventional force would be too much for Iran potentially, if they have more rounded capabilities

 

[Lulldapull]

Different contexts, different scenarios, I am trying to not make the discussion a moving target

I basically disagree that Iran is very advanced or far ahead of Pak military capability

You are going a bit too far in saying Iran divined the future and have the optimal war fighting strategy as ahead of their time and have the tech for it

They are operating in their context , normal


But Pak has more military maturity and assets than Iran, and more advanced capabilities technology wise in general

Finally, and you are quite cute with this, could Iran air defenses do much against jf17, for example? Not Pak Vs India lol
I think a third tier conventional force would be too much for Iran potentially, if they have more rounded capabilities

JF’s can be used to launch the Babur or RAAD etc. Penetrating Indian airspace or even Irani airspace is a tall order for F-16’s, let alone JF’s.

I bet our military guys are watching the Uki war very closely.

The Ukis received 6 F-16’s about a month ago and already they’ve lost two. And they couldn’t do anything.

 

[r3alist]

Pakistan needs to continue it's missile development
We have two superb partners in Turkey and China that can support drone development
We have a mountain load of Bakhtar shikans but I think we now need more modern atgm

Exactly, Pak seem to have decent access to the top tier stuff through turkey and China

Though because Iran has a developed an industry of lower tech sueycide drones that can saturate air defense that's awe inspiring and proves Pak is far far behind
It's effective, I agree.

 

[r3alist]

JF’s can be used to launch the Babur or RAAD etc. Penetrating Indian airspace or even Irani airspace is a tall order for F-16’s, let alone JF’s.

I bet our military guys are watching the Uki war very closely.

The Ukis received 6 F-16’s about a month ago and already they’ve lost two. And they couldn’t do anything.

Why a tall order for Iranian air defense?

What might Iran do, I don't believe much

Russia Ukraine is a very very different contexts, you can't keep comparing mangoes to aloo paratha

That's NATO Vs Russia

But Iran doesn't really have much of an air defense right, so some decent f16s could own the air space, but correct me if I am wrong

 

[LeGenD]

Iran certainly have expertise in developing missiles and drones and has developed some impressive stuff in recent years. Credit where due.

Pakistan has technical assistance from a number of countries lol. Pakistani companies are showing some stuff in exhibitions so there is an attempt to develop local industry which is good.

 

[Lulldapull]

Exactly, Pak seem to have decent access to the top tier stuff through turkey and China

Though because Iran has a developed an industry of lower tech sueycide drones that can saturate air defense that's awe inspiring and proves Pak is far far behind
It's effective, I agree.

Uki’s have been asking for this thing like crazy for so long. They are using it now against Russia with devastating results. This thing is their favorite weapon. Uki’s don’t want F-16s or Leopards or Strykers or Abrams. They want this thing in huge numbers.

Ukraine gets British long-range missiles ahead of counteroffensive

British Defense Minister Ben Wallace described the move as a “calibrated, proportionate response to Russian’s escalation” in its invasion of Ukraine.

www.defensenews.com

 

[Lulldapull]

Why a tall order for Iranian air defense?

What might Iran do, I don't believe much

Russia Ukraine is a very very different contexts, you can't keep comparing mangoes to aloo paratha

That's NATO Vs Russia

But Iran doesn't really have much of an air defense right, so some decent f16s could own the air space, but correct me if I am wrong

Their air defenses are many magnitudes more advanced than ours and far denser. This is one of their very strong area of expertise. Check their section on air defenses here on their forum. They have a dozen different local SAMs.

 

[LeGenD]

Ukraine had Russian origin industry and Ukrainian forces were trained to use Russian origin weapons in large part. Ukraine is learning how to use Western weapon systems but it takes time to develop suitable tactics with new technology. Ukraine does not have permission to use advanced weapons in Russian mainland either so this was a setback that was felt in Kursk.

There is still much the NATO has not provided to Ukraine because Ukraine does not have time to absorb so much tech in current situation. The only option is to improve Ukrainian defenses gradually while giving Ukraine sufficient ammo to fight Russians until the war has a conclusion.

 

[r3alist]

Uki’s have been asking for this thing like crazy for so long. They are using it now against Russia with devastating results. This thing is their favorite weapon. Uki’s don’t want F-16s or Leopards or Strykers or Abrams. They want this thing in huge numbers.

Ukraine gets British long-range missiles ahead of counteroffensive

British Defense Minister Ben Wallace described the move as a “calibrated, proportionate response to Russian’s escalation” in its invasion of Ukraine.

www.defensenews.com

I am not going to fall into the dead end of trying to use russian Ukraine conflict to apply NOTIONALLY to Iran or pak

But I'll bite a bit and say that Russia for the first part of the war didn't even call it a war, SMO remember, they didn't go all out

And NATO insisted on saying it was sound logic to deprive Ukraine of fighter jets so as not to fully escalate

They calibrated a term's of reference for the war

Ofcourse if you are Ukrainian you will feel you are being sent into a fight with one arm tied behind your back

They have always always wanted jets and the west is having to up the ante as the previous terms of reference for war they lost

There is a whole context and story to that link you post, you are not presenting the full context

Why do you think Russia is talking about reassessing their nuclear doctrine, things are escalating up



None of this ofcourse is relevant to if Iran could stop a jf17

And if they cant, then there you go

 

[r3alist]

Their air defenses are many magnitudes more advanced than ours and far denser. This is one of their very strong area of expertise. Check their section on air defenses here on their forum. They have a dozen different local SAMs.

Many magnitudes more?

Ok

Someone please confirm this, I don't have the full knowledge, nothing against Iran but really?

 

[r3alist]

Iran certainly have expertise in developing missiles and drones and has developed some impressive stuff in recent years. Credit where due.

Pakistan has technical assistance from a number of countries lol. Pakistani companies are showing some stuff in exhibitions so there is an attempt to develop local industry which is good.

Irans needs the missiles more so they have directed more resources, all good, what does it prove

It's mostly the low tech sueyside drone's we have seen right

The ones you can take a nap before they get anywhere close lol

 

[hussain0216]

Exactly, Pak seem to have decent access to the top tier stuff through turkey and China

Though because Iran has a developed an industry of lower tech sueycide drones that can saturate air defense that's awe inspiring and proves Pak is far far behind
It's effective, I agree.

I'm also quietly confident about our missiles

The MIRV capabilities and the maneuverable ballistic missiles made to go through AD, I think we are well prepared for our enemies

Our biggest problem as always is economic and money, not only do we need NUMBERS built up but also the funding to keep going

For too long we have scratched around for funding to support vital national defense programs, as a an emergency we need to sort the economy out

I'm also scratching my head about ATGMs, I know we have a massive stockpile of B.Ss, and some kornets and the American wire guided system I can't recall the name
But we need to either develop ourselves or just buy with TOT a Chinese or Turkish fire and forget system, that we can mass produce

Either they are happy with what Baktier shikan can do with our own plans in place or it's a financial issue