US Political News and Trump’s China visit

[Watandar]

Adding to @VCheng's post above, the Middle East is equally responsible for the foolish decisions it's made, and through its own ill-advised actions invited outside actors into the sandbox.

For sure, I am not saying leaders in Mideast did not make dumb choices. But you cannot just ignore the last 100 years of western intervention in that region and its ill effects.

 

[VCheng]

equally responsible for the foolish decisions it's made

With all decisions come the consequences associated with them. Inevitably. For everyone, equally.

Choose wisely, as I say.

 

[VCheng]

For sure, I am not saying leaders in Mideast did not make dumb choices. But you cannot just ignore the last 100 years of western intervention in that region and its ill effects.

That is just a tired old cop-out to avoid accepting responsibility for one's own actions. Blaming others is useless.

 

[Watandar]

That is just a tired old cop-out to avoid accepting responsibility for one's own actions. Blaming others is useless.

It's not a cop-out when you see in the last 25 years alone, the US has participated in wars/insurgencies in Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Palestine, Syria, Libya, Yemen alongwith supporting its aligned autocrats in the GCC, Pakistan etc. Add another 75 years of meddling and you cannot just hold the locals responsible.

 

[VCheng]

you cannot just hold the locals responsible.

And that, right there, is why the locals remain where they are, like it or not.

 

[Watandar]

And that, right there, is why the locals remain where they are, like it or not.

It's not a matter of "liking" or not. Bringing your countrymen out of poverty alone is a herculean task and expecting to do that in the middle of wars, coups and insurgencies imposed from the outside is impossible.

 

[PakFactor]

For sure, I am not saying leaders in Mideast did not make dumb choices. But you cannot just ignore the last 100 years of western intervention in that region and its ill effects.

Certainly, but how were we fundamentally different during the period before and after the Ottoman Empire's rule? Muslims did not simply emerge from the Hijaz region driven solely by love and empathy. Many of our adversaries perished by the sword or acquiesced to its force.

 

[Watandar]

Certainly, but how were we fundamentally different during the period before and after the Ottoman Empire's rule? Muslims did not simply emerge from the Hijaz region driven solely by love and empathy. Many of our adversaries perished by the sword or acquiesced to its force.

We are going off topic and need our own thread. I don't agree with your version of "Islam spread by the sword" history. You seem affected heavily by Orientalism.

 

[PakFactor]

It's not a matter of "liking" or not. Bringing your countrymen out of poverty alone is a herculean task and expecting to do that in the middle of wars, coups and insurgencies imposed from the outside is impossible.

China did, and it always knew it would one day rival America, including the Americans. However, it didn't go about its nation-building efforts with "Death to America" on its lips every day; it quietly struck steel, built capacity, educated its population, and the rest is what we see before us.

In a mere 40 years, it's the top dog, and just in the 1990s, it was known for tying tanks onto ships for firepower.

 

[Watandar]

China did, and it always knew it would one day rival America, including the Americans. However, it didn't go about its nation-building efforts with "Death to America" on its lips every day; it quietly struck steel, built capacity, educated its population, and the rest is what we see before us.

In a mere 40 years, it's the top dog, and just in the 1990s, it was known as a type of tank used on ships for firepower.

Let's take this to another thread. China has shown wisdom but also is a un-intended beneficiary of a business practice called globalization and geopolitical miscalculations by an America that was focused elsewhere. The Chinese are not some uber-geniuses to transform their country in just 40 years wholly by themselves, it was done with gigantic Western investment and transfer of know-how.

You seem to forget Tianenmen Square events as well.

 

[PakFactor]

We are going off topic and need our own thread. I don't agree with your version of "Islam spread by the sword" history. You seem affected heavily by Orientalism.

Let's not throw labels out. This ties into this topic by showing how power works when one is at the top of the food chain. Just to clarify, I'm not talking of conversions but rather territorial expansion and influence.

 

[Watandar]

Let's not throw labels out. This ties into this topic by showing how power works when one is at the top of the food chain. Just to clarify, I'm not talking of conversions but rather territorial expansion and influence.

Orientialism is a lot more than label, look into it. Territorial expansion and influence is what led to colonization and ultimately two world wars. It's one reason for the existence of the "Third World" or global south.

 

[PakFactor]

Orientialism is a lot more than label, look into it. Territorial expansion and influence is what led to colonization and ultimately two world wars. It's one reason for the existence of the "Third World" or global south.

Edward Said's book was mostly his opinion on how the West wrote about the East, and on how the West constructed its outlook of the Third World. Orientalism didn't lead to either of the two World Wars. Territorial expansion was just a part of power projection between the great powers, as cruel as its effects might have been, because Europeans viewed themselves as superior due to being civilized, educated, and having superior firepower, etc., but that is a whole ideology behind it.

 

[PakFactor]

Let's take this to another thread. China has shown wisdom but also is a un-intended beneficiary of a business practice called globalization and geopolitical miscalculations by an America that was focused elsewhere. The Chinese are not some uber-geniuses to transform their country in just 40 years wholly by themselves, it was done with gigantic Western investment and transfer of know-how.

You seem to forget Tianenmen Square events as well.

Wisdom, my friend, and it played the game as it was intended. Those same options were available to the Middle East, Pakistan, and other regions. Many nations that were once enemies of the Americans went on to be strong allies and have stronger economies.

Tiananmen Square, that's their internal matter, no different how we stream roll people.

 

[VCheng]

Bringing your countrymen out of poverty alone is a herculean task and expecting to do that in the middle of wars, coups and insurgencies imposed from the outside is impossible.

And yet, many countries have achieved exactly that.