This officer should be court martialed

[PK781]

Ok, lets assume that is true -
What is the hard blow at the head?
Nasser type situation? After all that fixed everything in Egypt right?

Or what else?
I keep hearing the ad nauseum on what needs to happen in some brief idea - but no actual plan on who, what , how - and then what's next.

At the end it all sounds like the usual cult harping -
To give you another "cult" that does this and was taken down by an elected leader -
Musharraf had this whatever baked idea of Kargil and presented it to Benazir- and she basically cut him down to size by asking "then what, General?" and Mushy had no answer.

Since many of those who support PTI blindly(not pointing to you) of which many dont even have the actual morals or frankly intelligence it seems to reply to when I probe their tape recorder postings - Ill ask you "Then what, @Goenitz ?"

isn't it a similar occurence every time? Our nations character never changed despite decades. We LOVE to preach about doing good and following rules but dont want to do it personally.

We are a nation with a short fuse, emotional and very narrow-minded and actively look for short-term immedite benefit shortcuts, and dont give a damn about long term consequences.

From airport arrivals to wanting protocols and preferences, to refusing to stand in line (some jumping over the guy before them). At the G-10 passport office waiting in a line of just 4 people few yrs ago, the guy behind us wanted to just jump over us all before him to collect his (extremely valuable ) Pak passport 2 mins before us. When confronted or nicely told to wait his turn in 2 mins, he started arguing and fighting.......
We have no patience or manners. Just want us to be served first no matter what.
Same at hospitals, clinics, nadra office, take your pick. etc.
Try going to a bank in Pak to deposit a bijli or gas ka bill........no discipline

Who here would not take advantage of "knowing someone" to get their work done faster in Pak? Koi b masla ho, falanay ko phone kero wo kerwa dega, bas paise lagainge.....we happily pay bribe to get things done faster. Then we complain about the rotten system.

Even a simple problem like this we can't find a solution to, and we expect the cops and military to be better? Theyre part of us, same stuff.

NO party or messiah can change you when you yourself dont want to change. Bcaz then the "falanay ko kehdo kaam jaldi hojaiga" wont be liked. Guaranteed

We simply do not want or can even HANDLE good changes. We will screw it too.
Because we love the same old rotten systems

 

[Goenitz]

Ok, lets assume that is true -
What is the hard blow at the head?
Nasser type situation? After all that fixed everything in Egypt right?

Or what else?
I keep hearing the ad nauseum on what needs to happen in some brief idea - but no actual plan on who, what , how - and then what's next.

At the end it all sounds like the usual cult harping -
To give you another "cult" that does this and was taken down by an elected leader -
Musharraf had this whatever baked idea of Kargil and presented it to Benazir- and she basically cut him down to size by asking "then what, General?" and Mushy had no answer.

Since many of those who support PTI blindly(not pointing to you) of which many dont even have the actual morals or frankly intelligence it seems to reply to when I probe their tape recorder postings - Ill ask you "Then what, @Goenitz ?"

I am just debating that GHQ will only buckle under force (physical, economic, international, etc.). No one can negotiate with that, or some businessmen, Lt. Gens, COAS (r) would have done that. Sadly, even the British Empire could be reasoned with.

I am also not discussing any plan, as everything is subjective. However, we must have accountability everywhere. Be it independent media, courts, police/FIA, etc. Then, checks and balances in the judiciary and the COAS office, especially in promotions (IA and indian courts are examples). In the end, everything will follow.

In summary, to change a company, country or any organisation, change its HR department. Our HR department is currently GHQ, which appoints politicians, police chiefs, favourite contractors, journalists, ECP, etc.

The last time civilians could do that, Bhutto himself wanted to enjoy being the civil chief marshal law administrator. Most likely, reforms will only come after another incident.

 

[Qureshi]

I am just debating that GHQ will only buckle under force (physical, economic, international, etc.). No one can negotiate with that, or some businessmen, Lt. Gens, COAS (r) would have done that. Sadly, even the British Empire could be reasoned with.

I am also not discussing any plan, as everything is subjective. However, we must have accountability everywhere. Be it independent media, courts, police/FIA, etc. Then, checks and balances in the judiciary and the COAS office, especially in promotions (IA and indian courts are examples). In the end, everything will follow.

In summary, to change a company, country or any organisation, change its HR department. Our HR department is currently GHQ, which appoints politicians, police chiefs, favourite contractors, journalists, ECP, etc.

The last time civilians could do that, Bhutto himself wanted to enjoy being the civil chief marshal law administrator. Most likely, reforms will only come after another incident.

I think your “HR department” analogy is actually the key point here. In fact, in many key institutions, ex-military generals or serving military officers are appointed to important positions. GHQ has influence over who gets appointed, promoted or removed across many of the important state institutions. So changing one politician, one government or even one COAS doesn't really solve the underlying problem. The system simply keeps producing the same outcome.

1. Control over institutions:
   The issue goes much beyond politics. The influence extends into the judiciary, bureaucracy, police/FIA, media, ECP & the political class even Mullas. When you have influence over who gets key positions & who moves up, it becomes very difficult for those institutions to act completely independently or hold the establishment accountable.
2. Economic interests:
   Then there is the huge military-linked business & real estate network — Fauji Foundation, AWT, Askari, Bahria Foundation, Shaheen Foundation, DHA & others. Whatever one's opinion about these organizations, the size of these interests means you can't really talk about institutional reform while pretending the military's economic footprint doesn't exist.
3. Informal trade:
   The same applies to the border economy. Smuggling & informal trade with Iran & Afghanistan have existed for decades despite fencing & tighter controls. There are obviously many layers to it, but the continued scale of it raises legitimate questions about who benefits, who protects these networks & why they remain so difficult to control.
4. Political engineering:
   And this brings us back to the HR department point. If one institution can influence political alliances, governments, senior bureaucratic appointments, police leadership & other important positions, then it also has influence over the people who are supposed to keep that institution in check.

So, for me, the solution isn't simply “change the government”. That only changes the people at the top. The real change has to be in the system of appointments, promotions & accountability itself.

Until that happens, we will keep going around in circles. And this is ultimately where the “state within a state” argument comes from. The military is supposed to be an institution of the state, but when it becomes powerful enough to influence the other institutions that are meant to oversee & constrain it, it starts functioning almost like a state within the state.