What book are you reading?

[Nilgiri]

My sincerest apologies for the late reply.

Bro never have to mention this. I also run out of time plenty (just like now, I will have to get to a reply a bit later when I can).

 

[Developereo]

I believe that we have the potential to challenge even the most advanced extraterrestrial civilizations imaginable.

LOL, not even close!

It is theoretically possible to build bombs that make our hydrogen bombs look like a wet firecracker.

If I was a hostile alien, I would detonate two gamma ray bombs high above Earth, on opposite sides to cover each hemisphere. They would sterilize the entire planet, down to viruses, in a matter of seconds. We would be gone in the blink of an eye.

Also your discussion assumes a human-like psychology for alien races. There is no justification for such a requirement for alien life. None whatsoever.

 

[_NOBODY_]

LOL, not even close!

It is theoretically possible to build bombs that make our hydrogen bombs look like a wet firecracker.

If I was a hostile alien, I would detonate two gamma ray bombs high above Earth, on opposite sides to cover each hemisphere. They would sterilize the entire planet, down to viruses, in a matter of seconds. We would be gone in the blink of an eye.

Also your discussion assumes a human-like psychology for alien races. There is no justification for such a requirement for alien life. None whatsoever.

You missed my point. I was talking about the potential of the human race. With enough time and assuming that we don't destroy ourselves, we are more than capable of becoming an intergalactic force.

There's no need for them to bother themselves with bioweapons if they want to annihilate us. They would probably have enough firepower to completely destroy the Earth to shreds in one blast.

 

[Developereo]

You missed my point. I was talking about the potential of the human race. With enough time and assuming that we don't destroy ourselves, we are more than capable of becoming an intergalactic force.

Again, on what do you base this conclusion other than wishful thinking? We have no data on other intelligences to decide what they are capable of and to compare capabilities.

Based on current science, it would take us at least 2.5 million years to even get to the next galaxy, never mind becoming an 'intergalactic force;'.

There's no need for them to bother themselves with bioweapons if they want to annihilate us. They would probably have enough firepower to completely destroy the Earth to shreds in one blast.

Depends what they want. No point wasting a planet by destroying it if they just want to sterilize it for their use.

And I again point out the unwarranted assumption that aliens will have similar psychology or sociology to humans. There is absolutely zero justification for the assumption that they would have concepts like morality and ethics. Zero.

The only hard science in all this talk of aliens is biochemistry. Water is a very special molecule, carbon is a very special atom, and their role in the development of certain chemicals crucial to life has been extensively studied. There may be alternatives to water and carbon -- silicon is often mentioned -- but it is all very speculative.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Lovely, peaceful thoughts to take to bed.

Thanks, good people.

 

[Nilgiri]

I disagree about them developing superior moral architecture if that involves being benevolent and guiding us to prosperity without getting anything valuable in return. Of course, if the level of technological prowess is too stark then they can afford to be significantly bold. Also, We need to logically asses as to why they should even keep us alive. Cold-heart reasoning will always be at the core of these things. No sentient species can survive and advance this much without it.

If they had development arc like us, it comes from recognition of the binary of life and death in the end. From that realisation is the golden rule soon after.

Humans as grossly imperfect as we still are, don't go around extinguishing life as the first reaction to seeing it existing, especially since the hunter-gatherer era ended and neolithic and then bronze age started (i.e farming and civilisation).

We are just stuck on this planet at this point, inductively we can think of other sentient life in these terms regarding ones that have curiosity/circumstance and capacity for contact whenever that happens.

If other sentient life is so disinclined to letting other sentient life exist (given the resources and vast systems all arrayed in between wherever they are and where we are), by essence or whichever circumstances and capacities unknown to us..... it is not worth contemplating to begin with.

Such things can be done with any future hypothetical, including ourselves. It is not relevant to base as a default. We simply don't know enough things regarding what is "near", "local" and "far" and "distant" for the references and bearings of other sentient life if they are arrayed around us in whatever % rate/star system.

The presumption that moral edifice = clearest pathway to truth is the default one humans will continue to have.

It has built all we take for granted today, every last thing you see around you (that separates our existence from the one of our very same species all those thousands of years ago)... was because good people existed. Not just reasoned people, but good people. We know deeply enough to some sufficient degree that ingratitude and hypocrisy are great sins....as we are no longer living like we did 10,000 years ago for example. This can be objectively seen and analysed.

It is clear the knowledge of good and bad is very closely related to our sentience to begin with. All that remains is to cultivate more of the former and diminish the latter within us, as far as possible....a long slow ongoing process with many gaps, voids, eddies and reverse flow in its smaller scales to the general flow.

So existence of any sentience with no knowledge of this (i.e large traverse capacity simply by some essence or incredible circumstance totally foreign to us), or intense alliance with the bad, with the ability to scale capacity (while not destroying itself somehow, contrary to all we know about us) is not relevant to worry about. Thinking about for some creative purpose, sure....but worrying about, we arent even close to scenario where it needs to be grappled with.....with all the work to complete among us first.

We take caution when the time comes commensurate to our capacity.....and in interim we just think about possibilities. Thinking is just trivial matter and for our creative purposes.

It is why @Joe Shearer had chuckle along with some others when I posted a while ago elsewhere, that our inductive modelling (and some "baked in" internal issues) is carried onto much of our extra-terrestrial conceptualisation in some pretty deep ways:

I would also like to add that if the extraterrestrial civilizations are indeed smart which they most definitely are, they will assess our potential before making contact. Our potential will play a critical role in their decision-making process. I believe that we have the potential to challenge even the most advanced extraterrestrial civilizations imaginable.

Well by "civilisation" you already imply intelligence. Unless its essence/circumstance lifeforms again that are totally foreign to our notion of life and sentience....in which case we can only "get to it" at that much later point we come across it.

The potentials again are reference based, and we dont have absolute references in the nature of infinity (and infinite infinities)

Think of the largest number you can possibly conceptualise. Something like how many electrons you could squish into the universe's total volume.

This is still a very small number in the end all things considered, you barely moved at all on the number line essentially.

The ramifications here are not relevant for us to worry/concern about in practicalities at the moment.... given what clearly lies as future capacity and inquiry on the scales relevant to us....that will all exist as tiers of progress only with hindsight.

Trueeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! Curiosity and greed are good things for a civilization to have, dare I say even essential but when you pair them up with shortsightedness, catastrophes occur.

I don't think curiousity or greed are good things per se. Curiousity is neutral. It can be good or bad, depends on context.

Greed is generally bad (and often very bad), though depends on definition. To me it implies excessive allocation/need of something well past what is actually or reasonably needed/required.

Even with the many famous explorers, I can generally get a feeling (once I read enough of them) which ones had greed as motivation. Its not a good driving force for nature of exploration.

Anyway I am bit sad @VCheng seems to have left the forum. Hope he reading this and returns.

Gonna tag @Fatman17 to partake and add what he thinks about aliens and stuff, or anything else in last few pages.

 

[Fatman17]

If they had development arc like us, it comes from recognition of the binary of life and death in the end. From that realisation is the golden rule soon after.

Humans as grossly imperfect as we still are, don't go around extinguishing life as the first reaction to seeing it existing, especially since the hunter-gatherer era ended and neolithic and then bronze age started (i.e farming and civilisation).

We are just stuck on this planet at this point, inductively we can think of other sentient life in these terms regarding ones that have curiosity/circumstance and capacity for contact whenever that happens.

If other sentient life is so disinclined to letting other sentient life exist (given the resources and vast systems all arrayed in between wherever they are and where we are), by essence or whichever circumstances and capacities unknown to us..... it is not worth contemplating to begin with.

Such things can be done with any future hypothetical, including ourselves. It is not relevant to base as a default. We simply don't know enough things regarding what is "near", "local" and "far" and "distant" for the references and bearings of other sentient life if they are arrayed around us in whatever % rate/star system.

The presumption that moral edifice = clearest pathway to truth is the default one humans will continue to have.

It has built all we take for granted today, every last thing you see around you (that separates our existence from the one of our very same species all those thousands of years ago)... was because good people existed. Not just reasoned people, but good people. We know deeply enough to some sufficient degree that ingratitude and hypocrisy are great sins....as we are no longer living like we did 10,000 years ago for example. This can be objectively seen and analysed.

It is clear the knowledge of good and bad is very closely related to our sentience to begin with. All that remains is to cultivate more of the former and diminish the latter within us, as far as possible....a long slow ongoing process with many gaps, voids, eddies and reverse flow in its smaller scales to the general flow.

So existence of any sentience with no knowledge of this (i.e large traverse capacity simply by some essence or incredible circumstance totally foreign to us), or intense alliance with the bad, with the ability to scale capacity (while not destroying itself somehow, contrary to all we know about us) is not relevant to worry about. Thinking about for some creative purpose, sure....but worrying about, we arent even close to scenario where it needs to be grappled with.....with all the work to complete among us first.

We take caution when the time comes commensurate to our capacity.....and in interim we just think about possibilities. Thinking is just trivial matter and for our creative purposes.

It is why @Joe Shearer had chuckle along with some others when I posted a while ago elsewhere, that our inductive modelling (and some "baked in" internal issues) is carried onto much of our extra-terrestrial conceptualisation in some pretty deep ways:

View attachment 33801



Well by "civilisation" you already imply intelligence. Unless its essence/circumstance lifeforms again that are totally foreign to our notion of life and sentience....in which case we can only "get to it" at that much later point we come across it.

The potentials again are reference based, and we dont have absolute references in the nature of infinity (and infinite infinities)

Think of the largest number you can possibly conceptualise. Something like how many electrons you could squish into the universe's total volume.

This is still a very small number in the end all things considered, you barely moved at all on the number line essentially.

The ramifications here are not relevant for us to worry/concern about in practicalities at the moment.... given what clearly lies as future capacity and inquiry on the scales relevant to us....that will all exist as tiers of progress only with hindsight.



I don't think curiousity or greed are good things per se. Curiousity is neutral. It can be good or bad, depends on context.

Greed is generally bad (and often very bad), though depends on definition. To me it implies excessive allocation/need of something well past what is actually or reasonably needed/required.

Even with the many famous explorers, I can generally get a feeling (once I read enough of them) which ones had greed as motivation. Its not a good driving force for nature of exploration.

Anyway I am bit sad @VCheng seems to have left the forum. Hope he reading this and returns.

Gonna tag @Fatman17 to partake and add what he thinks about aliens and stuff, or anything else in last few pages.

Unfortunately I'm not as articulate as the honorable @Nilgiri and @joeshearer but a line from a movie reminds me that
"People are naturally good natured but it is the choices they make that differentiate the "good from the bad/evil".
The Road to educating oneself is a infinite one. In my experience I've learned more from Life than I ever could from school and university (14 years) and Greed is a Road where you trample over anyone who comes in your way to get one's fame (or infame) and fortune only to leave it all behind when you meet your maker.
Finally it's our individual governments that makes us decide who we like or hate because l say this based on my wonderful experiences when visiting India (Delhi Mumbai and Hyderabad). The love the ordinary Indian showed towards me was quite incredible and to my surprise and relief as I was very reluctant to go to India.
Ok too much of my dithering. Cheers

 

[Joe Shearer]

Unfortunately I'm not as articulate as the honorable @Nilgiri and @joeshearer but a line from a movie reminds me that
"People are naturally good natured but it is the choices they make that differentiate the "good from the bad/evil".
The Road to educating oneself is a infinite one. In my experience I've learned more from Life than I ever could from school and university (14 years) and Greed is a Road where you trample over anyone who comes in your way to get one's fame (or infame) and fortune only to leave it all behind when you meet your maker.
Finally it's our individual governments that makes us decide who we like or hate because l say this based on my wonderful experiences when visiting India (Delhi Mumbai and Hyderabad). The love the ordinary Indian showed towards me was quite incredible and to my surprise and relief as I was very reluctant to go to India.
Ok too much of my dithering. Cheers

You came to Hyderabad!
How wonderful.
We always get overlooked.

 

[Fatman17]

PAF and the 71 war
Searching for this book

 

[Nilgiri]

w.r.t: https://defencepk.com/forums/threads/miners-unknowingly-enter-a-death-trap.6675/

I have never even heard of Neve Going Back Down There. Is it worth watching?

heh, "never going back down there" is quote from the movie. (I'm paraphrasing a bit I feel, its been a while since I saw the movie)

Name of the movie itself is "October Sky" (1999), based on true story autobiography memoirs ("Rocket boys" aka "October Sky")....published a year earlier by Homer Hickam.



Both movie and book are worth watching and reading.....and in that order if you want the same sequence I had by circumstance 20+ years ago.

There are some things a book does better, but there are often many things only a movie can do to begin with.

I wonder if @Joe Shearer @Fatman17 and others have heard the voice of an angel in another movie? It was impossible in the book it was based on....if they know what I am talking of.

 

[Fatman17]

Lovely movie

 

[Indos]

I am interested to one book written by Indonesian political analyst, Burhanudin Muhtadi, who is also a founder and director of the most respected survey company in Indonesia, Indikator.

The book is talking about money politics during election. It is more on research book as Burhanudin is also a professor ( but pretty young at 50 years old something ). I expect his book will be supported by survey and insiders information as he has extensive link to journalist, politicians, and academic society.

I am planning to buy the book on weekend. This is a new released book.

 

[Fatman17]

I am interested to one book written by Indonesian political analyst, Burhanudin Muhtadi, who is also a founder and director of the most respected survey company in Indonesia, Indikator.

The book is talking about money politics during election. It is more on research book as Burhanudin is also a professor ( but pretty young at 50 years old something ). I expect his book will be supported by survey and insiders information as he has extensive link to journalist, politicians, and academic society.

I am planning to buy the book on weekend. This is a new released book.

Do share your thoughts with us. Money in elections is used extensively in Pakistan to buy loyalties and votes.

 

[Indos]

Do share your thoughts with us. Money in elections is used extensively in Pakistan to buy loyalties and votes.

Yup after I bought and read it.

According to Burhanudin, the money politics is so minimal when political parties chose their own members to participate in general election.

Situation is changed when a new law released and with this law any political party doesnt have the luxury to decide which one that should represent the parties, so every ones practically can participate with only the election that become the main filter. It is of course will weaken political elites within parties and will make the election more democratic, but there is still negative impact on this law.

According to Burhanuddin, Indonesian parliament candidates often give donation to their targeted group which is of course the lower income group within the region where the contested parliament seat that he/she wants to get

It will be important to see the effect of such donation to the real voting as Burhan I believe will use his survey company to do some sort of survey to that targeted constitution

 

[Nilgiri]

I wonder if @Joe Shearer @Fatman17 and others have heard the voice of an angel in another movie? It was impossible in the book it was based on....if they know what I am talking of.

No takers it seems

The book could only be read (even though Cornelius Ryan did a very good job with it):



But then again, I only read the book a lot later in life compared to watching the movie (several times) with my papa.

Fond are the memories of my dad explaining so many things through the whole movie, and getting frustrated i didn't quite grasp the importance of each bit...then get swept up in his catatonic way emotionally at various parts...."you will understand when you are older my boy"

More than any other episode of ww2, it is this one that my dad to this day tests my knowledge on the most (the bridges of market garden).

But who was the Angel I mention? It was only much later in life, I was told the opening narration was by "the" real life "Angel of Arnhem", (Kate ter Horst). I had never known it till then, neither had my dad.

Even knowing the whole movie pretty much like the back of my hand, the intro still sends chills up my spine when she says "...and bring the boys back home" with the great memorable musical theme ramping up.

Can't be done in a book!

Heck you couldn't even do this in a movie these days for a number of reasons:

Iguess from time to time ill pair things with a "what movie you're watching?" sense in this thread too, where relevant.