Who Created Harappan / Indus Valley Civilisation? | How Did It End? | Samvaad With Devdutt Pattanaik

[Vikramaditya1]

Did I lose some key part of my imported genetic ancestry though? Can you illustrate how Pakistani muslims have "lost" (let's say, as per your inference, through these cultural peculiarities leading to some streak of artifical selection) specifically that imported part which Indian (northern) hindus have "retained" in terms of genetics?

By the way, R1a lineage, a major haplogroup in this part of the world, is paternally derived, not maternally. It is even MORE frequent in upper castes e.g. brahmins. I'm sure you know where this haplogroup came from in geographic terms.

Beef eating and abstinence from caste philosophy is a "native" culture? So why do the laws in several states of the Secular Republic militate against this practice?

Pakistani Muslims are Pakistani Muslims. I don't know what are you even talking about. Like didn't Jinnah wanted to have a country for Muslims? As they are seperate people to one is Mard e momina other is Hindoo. Now you're arguing about Hindu cultural nomenclatures like Aryan or caste and so on. Why even bother about these things. You must already have plenty to worry over.

Yes indeed, take Tamil Nadu for example, Dravidian culture sees Cattle as family, banned killing them. Very regulated meat market. Agricultural communities treated their cattles carefully and have for centuries it shouldn't be a surprise why cow meat is banned, it has been for thousands of years. This land is primarily agrarian lands, blessed with ample water and largest fertile plains in the world. North South East West all have a lot of unique traditional festivities that are culturally Indic and celebrated.

 

[Vikramaditya1]

Genetic Evidence on the Origins of Indian Caste Populations - PMC

The origins and affinities of the ∼1 billion people living on the subcontinent of India have long been contested. This is owing, in part, to the many different waves of immigrants that have influenced the genetic structure of India. In the most ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Table 5:

View attachment 212805

These are autosomal genetic distances to standard continental DNA indices for different caste groups in Bharat. This table would imply that upper castes are closer, genetically, to a European derived genome than lower castes are. Lower castes are closer to an Asian derived genome than higher castes are. Lower castes are more "native" to Asia.

Nice try obfuscating data. Where is this data collected from? Your own link says this data is from 40 individuals in Andhra Pradesh in South India of all places. It's too little and irrelevant to the topic.

My point still stands, group with the highest steppe ancestry in considered as backward and never considered royalty or upper caste, your own logic fails about the steppe ancestry. So what must be your theory? High steppe people, the Europeans et al, all of a sudden turned into Dalits or Backward?

 

[Master Chief]

Pakistani Muslims are Pakistani Muslims. I don't know what are you even talking about. Like didn't Jinnah wanted to have a country for Muslims? As they are seperate people to one is Mard e momina other is Hindoo. Now you're arguing about Hindu cultural nomenclatures like Aryan or caste and so on. Why even bother about these things. You must already have plenty to worry over.

Yes indeed, take Tamil Nadu for example, Dravidian culture sees Cattle as family, banned killing them. Very regulated meat market. Agricultural communities treated their cattles carefully and have for centuries it shouldn't be a surprise why cow meat is banned, it has been for thousands of years. This land is primarily agrarian lands, blessed with ample water and largest fertile plains in the world. North South East West all have a lot of unique traditional festivities that are culturally Indic and celebrated.

Your original claim:

Those who lost that lineage and culture are termed mlechcha by the Aryans themselves.

My question on the matter of lineage:

How does one lose one's lineage??

Your response:

, there are many ways, say feeding on your own cattle which could invite death penalty in some cases, by breeding with your own gotra (relatives). Say you marry someone from same gotra, which is extremely troubling and as per scriptures a child born out of it becomes what's known as chandala, an untouchable. You must divorce your wife and take penance for it then you're safe but your offspring suffers.

I described this as dubious and too short a time frame to explain actual "loss of lineage" by way of the artificially selective process (I.e. some form of slow genocide through unspecified harm of undesirable offspring, as per your own description):

Did I lose some key part of my imported genetic ancestry though? Can you illustrate how Pakistani muslims have "lost" (let's say, as per your inference, through these cultural peculiarities leading to some streak of artifical selection) specifically that imported part which Indian (northern) hindus have "retained" in terms of genetics?

And now, instead of qualifying your claim of "lost lineage", you have chosen to discuss something unrelated.

If you have no evidence to support this assertion of "lost lineage", then fair enough.

As for beef eating, you and Dravidians may follow any doctrine of your choosing, but we will remind you and Dravidians alike that Harappans ate lots of beef without any negative state derived ramifications. It shouldn't be a surprise to any of you that we will do as the Harappans did and meanwhile will call you out for following foreign doctrine brought by chariot riders from the Eurasian Steppe.

 

[Vikramaditya1]

Every Indian deadset on denying genetics and reality brings up the Rors, thinking that this cherrypicked group

Rors are in millions and hardly endogamous in the sense they rarely inbreed. Rors had the smallest average number of ROHs among the northwest Indian populations examined. You don't like rors do you, they invalidates your entire bullshit.

The Rors and Jats are in the NW region of the subcontinent where high steppe admixture is typical. Because of intense endogamy, Rors have been able to retain a higher proportion of steppe ancestry. Their existence doesn't change the fact that the typical untouchable in South Asia, branded as impure, filthy, mleccha, etc by bigoted Sanatanjs is someone with native ancestry and virtually no steppe DNA. It's literally not an even an exception to the rule bc communities like the Jats and Rors are from a region where Sanatan was rightfully treated like kuchra and Brahminical dominance was the weakest.

North East are no different, high steppe is hardly an indication of higher caste status your attempt at bringing this whole invader native bull crap is funny to say the least. A mlechcha is a status given by actions not by simple steppe or looks. Rors or Jats are no exception they form majority in certain regions and where NW Brahmins groups have lesser steppe shifted ancestry compared to jats. Historically steppe shifted people were not great rulers nor conquerors either. Neither known for their intellectual ability. Except maybe Tribals every Indian has some steppe related ancestry in them, you choose this Steppe ancestry - caste connect as a hill to die on.

 

[Neojinnah]

Now you're arguing about Hindu cultural nomenclatures like Aryan or caste and so on.

Aryan is not Hindu cultural nomenclature. Iranians used it as a self-identifier too. What it is, is an Indo-European term which Indian Hindus have latched onto like a greedy tick/leech hungry for blood. Many Indians don't even have the Indo-European ancestry to justify the shameless kanging and gatekeeping the discussion on this.

Rors are in millions and hardly endogamous in the sense they rarely inbreed.

I have no clue what Vhatsapp forward told you endogamous = inbreeding, but it simply means that they refuse to marry outside their ingroup, which is why researchers can pinpoint caste crystallizing several thousands of years ago. This is why you can identify the caste of villagers by simply looking at their genetics.

. A mlechcha is a status given by actions not by simple steppe or looks

Once again, mleccha is a status invented by NW Indo-Aryan people who came from the steppe. No amount of shameless kanging or cow fanaticism by non-Indo Aryans natives who adopted Aryans as their abu, adopted their names and tribes, will change the roots of the term and the identity. That's my point. It's incredible I need to keep hammering this again and again and you keep slithering around like a pest trying to avoid this point. The ancestors of the average Hindu wouldn't have been calling people mleccha because they were lowborn natives, alien to the Indo-Aryan people.

Rors or Jats are no exception they form majority in certain regions

They form the majority in the NW region which is filled with steppe-shifted Indo Aryan groups. They are the exception in the sense that outside of the NW, where there are only AASI-maxxed lowborn natives kanging on Aryans as if they entirely forgot their native heritage, there is no equivalent to them. You will literally not find an equivalent to Rors in some cow fanatic village/ bimaru slum or further South. The communities with high steppe ancestry in these areaa are all chauvinistic UC Hindu communities who kill/rape lowborn natives for sport.

 

[Vikramaditya1]

Your original claim:

It is correct. Your applying two different time lines. One happened nearly two thousand years back the other a few hundred years back. What happened few hundred years back is irrelevant when we talk about ancient history.

My question on the matter of lineage:

Not my problem, Muslims are not the topic here. You're trying to make it about them, I don't care about recent history.

I described this as dubious and too short a time frame to explain actual "loss of lineage" by way of the artificially selective process (I.e. some form of slow genocide through unspecified harm of undesirable offspring, as per your own description):

That's your interpretation not necessarily the truth. Your feelings against recorded facts from scriptures. Gandharans are considered mleccha.

Also people in those times rarely married into same gothra so there is no mass genocide. Even in this day and age marriage in same gothra is not common.

And now, instead of qualifying your claim of "lost lineage", you have chosen to discuss something unrelated.

If you have no evidence to support this assertion of "lost lineage", then fair enough.

As for beef eating, you and Dravidians may follow any doctrine of your choosing, but we will remind you and Dravidians alike that Harappans ate lots of beef without any negative state derived ramifications. It shouldn't be a surprise to any of you that we will do as the Harappans did and meanwhile will call you out for following foreign doctrine brought by chariot riders from the Eurasian Steppe.

Indeed they may have, but humans evolve, we used to eat raw meat and run naked, kill each other for being from the wrong tribe doesn't mean we should do it now. At one point even the Vedas allowed beef consumption with restrictions but later forbade it. No matter how many times you try to push this foreign doctrine theory, the evidences will not back you up. Indic cultures developed in this land, it is rooted here and it has elements from continuous civilisation. Chariot riding foreigners told us to worship Ganga Yamuna Saraswati, satudri. Why not the Central Asian lands, not one mention of their homeland in any of the verses. I wonder what kind of shithole they came from. Lol!

 

[Neojinnah]

ndeed they may have, but humans evolve, we used to eat raw meat and run naked, kill each other for being from the wrong tribe doesn't mean we should do it now. At one point even the Vedas allowed beef consumption with restrictions but later forbade it. No matter how many times you try to push this foreign doctrine theory, the evidences will not back you up. Indic cultures developed in this land, it is rooted here and it has elements from continuous civilisation. Chariot riding foreigners told us to worship Ganga Yamuna Saraswati, satudri. Why not the Central Asian lands, not one mention of their homeland in any of the verses. I wonder what kind of shithole they came from. Lol!

I think you're being disingenous and wasting everyone's time. Maybe you're just stupid. Who knows.

But the crux of what he's arguing, is that if a settler colonial religion like Sanatan which came to the subcontinent branding the majority of people as slaves, untouchable, impure, filthy, barbaric, etc can eventually come to be regarded by Indian Hindus as a "native Indian religion", there is nothing which prevents a religion like Islam which has been present and independently developed in the region for a thousand years to also be one. Islam is just one of the many traditions followed by the Indic people. Rapist convert Ramesh Yadav simply has no right telling people they abandoned their lineage, abandoned their roots, dont belong, etc. Most Hindus like him have basically no ancestral memory of their female mediated AASI heritage. They are all kanging on Aryans!

 

[Vikramaditya1]

Aryan is not Hindu cultural nomenclature.

It is. And not every Iranian, the elites, and less frequently in Avestan.

What it is

Nope.

I have no clue what Vhatsapp forward told you endogamous = inbreeding, but it simply means that they refuse to marry outside their ingroup, which is why researchers can pinpoint caste crystallizing several thousands of years ago. This is why you can identify the caste of villagers by simply looking at their genetics.

Not quite but for arguments sake you can figure out caste of some people based on their overall appearance. Not facial features rather dressing and more. So villagers can be identified based on their appearance overall.

Once again, mleccha is a status invented by NW Indo-Aryan people who came from the steppe. No amount of shameless kanging or cow fanaticism by non-Indo Aryans natives who adopted Aryans as their abu, adopted their names and tribes, will change the roots of the term and the identity. That's my point. It's incredible I need to keep hammering this again and again and you keep slithering around like a pest trying to avoid this point. The ancestors of the average Hindu wouldn't have been calling people mleccha because they were lowborn natives, alien to the Indo-Aryan people.

NW Indo Aryan? You mean North West Indians lol!

They form the majority in the NW region which is filled with steppe-shifted Indo Aryan groups. They are the exception in the sense that outside of the NW, where there are only AASI-maxxed lowborn natives kanging on Aryans as if they entirely forgot their native heritage, there is no equivalent to them. You will literally not find an equivalent to Rors in some cow fanatic village/ bimaru slum or further South. The communities with high steppe ancestry in these areaa are all chauvinistic UC Hindu communities who kill/rape lowborn natives for sport.

Quite the opposite, more AASI the higher chance you conquered vast lands. One might wonder why high steppe NW Indians didn't have large empires? It's always those Bihari Bengali or some South Indian West South East Indians. NW high steppe pure blood Aryans fail at every turn. Be it intellectually or in ruling. Talking about ancient history, modern history is pretty much neutral.

 

[Vikramaditya1]

I think you're being disingenous and wasting everyone's time. Maybe you're just stupid. Who knows.

Says the guy who wrote this verbal diarrhea.

where there are only AASI-maxxed lowborn natives kanging on Aryans as if they entirely forgot their native heritage, there is no equivalent to them. You will literally not find an equivalent to Rors in some cow fanatic village/ bimaru slum or further South. The communities with high steppe ancestry in these areaa are all chauvinistic UC Hindu communities who kill/rape lowborn natives for sport.

 

[Master Chief]

Nice try obfuscating data. Where is this data collected from? Your own link says this data is from 40 individuals in Andhra Pradesh in South India of all places. It's too little and irrelevant to the topic.

My point still stands, group with the highest steppe ancestry in considered as backward and never considered royalty or upper caste, your own logic fails about the steppe ancestry. So what must be your theory? High steppe people, the Europeans et al, all of a sudden turned into Dalits or Backward?

Criticising the sample as a last resort?

The data speaks for itself.

Genetic evidence on the origins of Indian caste populations

experts.arizona.edu

"for paternally inherited Y-chromosome variation each caste is more similar to Europeans than to Asians. Moreover, the affinity to Europeans is proportionate to caste rank, the upper castes being most similar to Europeans, particularly East Europeans. These findings are consistent with greater West Eurasian male admixture with castes of higher rank."

-----------------------------------

Other studies routinely agree that up to 70% (or higher) of Brahmins hold a location specific subgroup of the imported R1a haplotype.

Aryan Migration Theory: What DNA Evidence Actually Shows

What ancient DNA evidence actually reveals about the Aryan Migration Theory and Indo-Aryan origins in South Asia.

helixline.in

"R1a-Z93 -- The Indo-Aryan Marker: The Y-chromosome haplogroup R1a has two major branches. R1a-Z282 is concentrated in Eastern Europe, while R1a-Z93 is concentrated in Central and South Asia. Both branches diverged from a common ancestor on the steppe around 2500-2000 BCE. Today, R1a-Z93 is found in 30-70% of men in many North Indian caste groups, with highest frequencies among Brahmins. Its complete absence in pre-2000 BCE South Asian samples and its high frequency in Sintashta/Andronovo sites provides powerful evidence for a southward migration."

"Among caste populations, Brahmins consistently show the highest R1a frequencies (50-72% in some North Indian Brahmin groups)
Tribal and Dravidian-speaking populations show much lower R1a frequencies (typically under 15%)"

You speak of Rors and Jats repeatedly but these are mere exceptions that prove an overwhelmingly data-driven rule. The explanation for these outliers has been given to you already - local intermixing of genomic pools and consequent "founder effect", which data indicates did indeed occur to a significant degree in the north west of India and even among tribal communities.

Here are some perspectives on R1a in particular that may be more palatable if peer-reviewed research on an Andhra Pradesh sample is not to your liking:

How genetics is settling the Aryan migration debate

New DNA evidence is solving the most fought-over question in Indian history. And you will be surprised at how sure-footed the answer is, writes Tony Joseph

senthalam.com

"R1a is distributed all over Europe, Central Asia and South Asia; its sub-group Z282 is distributed only in Europe while another subgroup Z93 is distributed only in parts of Central Asia and South Asia; and three major subgroups of Z93 are distributed only in India, Pakistan, Afghanistan and the Himalayas. This clear picture of the distribution of R1a has finally put paid to an earlier hypothesis that this haplogroup perhaps originated in India and then spread outwards. This hypothesis was based on the erroneous assumption that R1a lineages in India had huge diversity compared to other regions, which could be indicative of its origin here. As Prof. Richards puts it, “the idea that R1a is very diverse in India, which was largely based on fuzzy microsatellite data, has been laid to rest” thanks to the arrival of large numbers of genomic Y-chromosome data."

Prof Richards' paper:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28335724/

And his worded conclusions on the matter:

"Maternal lineages primarily reflect earlier, pre-Holocene processes, and paternal lineages predominantly episodes within the last 10 ka. In particular, genetic influx from Central Asia in the Bronze Age was strongly male-driven, consistent with the patriarchal, patrilocal and patrilineal social structure attributed to the inferred pastoralist early Indo-European society. This was part of a much wider process of Indo-European expansion, with an ultimate source in the Pontic-Caspian region, which carried closely related Y-chromosome lineages, a smaller fraction of autosomal genome-wide variation and an even smaller fraction of mitogenomes across a vast swathe of Eurasia between 5 and 3.5 ka."

Our old mutual friend David Reich adds:

“The genetics is tending to support the Steppe hypothesis because in the last year, we have identified a very strong pattern that this ancient North Eurasian ancestry that you see in Europe today, we now know when it arrived in Europe. It arrived 4500 years ago from the East from the Steppe...

“In India, you can see, for example, that there is this profound population mixture event that happens between 2000 to 4000 years ago. It corresponds to the time of the composition of the Rigveda, the oldest Hindu religious text, one of the oldest pieces of literature in the world, which describes a mixed society...”

 

[Master Chief]

It is. And not every Iranian, the elites, and less frequently in Avestan.

Nope.

Not quite but for arguments sake you can figure out caste of some people based on their overall appearance. Not facial features rather dressing and more. So villagers can be identified based on their appearance overall.

NW Indo Aryan? You mean North West Indians lol!

Quite the opposite, more AASI the higher chance you conquered vast lands. One might wonder why high steppe NW Indians didn't have large empires? It's always those Bihari Bengali or some South Indian West South East Indians. NW high steppe pure blood Aryans fail at every turn. Be it intellectually or in ruling. Talking about ancient history, modern history is pretty much neutral.

You're ignoring his points in your piecemeal posts. Just as you are ignoring mine or dismissing them as "not about Islam saar!".

Yes it is. It's a cultural practice adopted by one group while a different group adopted a different practice. Beef eating cannot be condemned by virtue of it being "foreign derived ideology" because beef abstinence can equally be demonstrated to be foreign derived ideology by virtue of the above data that you keep skipping over.

What is the hurry to close this off? Do you need to be somewhere else?

Show the data that supports the genuine indigenous origins of whatever "cultural" practice you are defending (in this case, beef abstinence).

It has been demonstrated to you that this cultural phenomenon is as foreign to the Harappans (and even the whole of south asia) as Islam was. You can refute this with genetic or any other scientific proof or you can keep lol-ing like a 10 year old.

 

[Vikramaditya1]

Criticising the sample as a last resort?

You brought up a South Indian survey conducted without much samples. Not me.

Criticising the sample as a last resort?

The data speaks for itself.

Genetic evidence on the origins of Indian caste populations

experts.arizona.edu

"for paternally inherited Y-chromosome variation each caste is more similar to Europeans than to Asians. Moreover, the affinity to Europeans is proportionate to caste rank, the upper castes being most similar to Europeans, particularly East Europeans. These findings are consistent with greater West Eurasian male admixture with castes of higher rank."

-----------------------------------

Other studies routinely agree that up to 70% (or higher) of Brahmins hold a location specific subgroup of the imported R1a haplotype.

You're mixing together three different genetic questions, Y chromosome r1a frequency, autosomal Steppe ancestry, and caste rank west Eurasian affinity as though they were interchangeable. They aren't.

R1a-Z93 -- The Indo-Aryan Marker:

Kinda yeah. But an Indian man carrying r1a Z93 today isn't thereby “30%, 50% or 100% Aryan.” It tells us about one direct paternal line.

(50-72% in some North Indian Brahmin groups)

Good for em then... But there Brahmins are exception too they form a very low percentage of the general pop much less than high steppe Jatt.

Important caveat from your own source on that Andhra study "
the mitochondrial genome and the Y chromosome each represents only a single haploid locus and explain that they are more vulnerable to stochastic variation, bottlenecks and selective sweeps than autosomal loci."
Which basically means r1a frequency cannot be taken as it is and treat it as genome wide ancestry.

Of the rest of your arguments is simply known points I never objected to. I wasted time reading through all this for what???
The issue is If Steppe ancestry supposedly explains later high caste elite status, why do some of the most Steppe shifted Indian populations such as Rors, jatts lack Brahmin royal upper varna status?
I'm not disputing Steppe migration or elevated Steppe ancestry among Brahmins. I'm pointing out that some non Brahmin agrarian communities who form a lower caste status in varna, such as Rors Jats can have exceptionally high Steppe-related ancestry. So steppe ancestry by itself clearly cannot explain later ritual caste rank or their status.

You can be fresh off the boat steppe MLBA 100% r1a from Central Asia landing somewhere in Gandhara in 1000BCE. What do you think their your caste will be? If you figured that out then that answers all these questions. Not going tangential.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

So according to indian kind, Pakistanis cannot celebrate the success of their ancestors and the ancient civilisation they produced of Harappa, Mohenjendaro and the Indus Valley Civilisation as modern day Pakistanis are not the same religion as their ancestors.................

 

[Vikramaditya1]

You're ignoring his points in your piecemeal posts. Just as you are ignoring mine or dismissing them as "not about Islam saar!".

I don't think she needs a knight in shining armour but go on.

Yes it is. It's a cultural practice adopted by one group while a different group adopted a different practice. Beef eating cannot be condemned by virtue of it being "foreign derived ideology" because beef abstinence can equally be demonstrated to be foreign derived ideology by virtue of the above data that you keep skipping over.

No. Keep trying to prove that and fail. "Harappans ate beef but those foreigners introduced beef abstinence. ". It's an evolution, not a bunch of people introducing any restrictions one day.

What is the hurry to close this off? Do you need to be somewhere else?

I mirror ones response, make logical points not rhetoric you get the same in return.

Show the data that supports the genuine indigenous origins of whatever "cultural" practice you are defending (in this case, beef abstinence).

R.V specifically mentions beef consumption, sacrifice to lord Indra. Vedic societies also revered them as a source of milk. Later texts and brahmanas prohibited beef. There is hundreds if not a thousand year gap between when it was okay to when it was not okay. Also mind you we are not discussing Indigenous origins of Indic cultures like Hinduism, Buddhism et al it's well established.

It has been demonstrated to you that this cultural phenomenon is as foreign to the Harappans (and even the whole of south asia) as Islam was. You can refute this with genetic or any other scientific proof or you can keep lol-ing like a 10 year old.

Nope. Your argument is Harappans practiced X later Indians practiced not X not X must have come from foreigners. Please allow me to lol like a 10 year old. Because what should I say to that argument other than laugh at it.

 

[Master Chief]

You brought up a South Indian survey conducted without much samples. Not me.

You're mixing together three different genetic questions, Y chromosome r1a frequency, autosomal Steppe ancestry, and caste rank west Eurasian affinity as though they were interchangeable. They aren't.

Kinda yeah. But an Indian man carrying r1a Z93 today isn't thereby “30%, 50% or 100% Aryan.” It tells us about one direct paternal line.

Good for em then... But there Brahmins are exception too they form a very low percentage of the general pop much less than high steppe Jatt.

Important caveat from your own source on that Andhra study "
the mitochondrial genome and the Y chromosome each represents only a single haploid locus and explain that they are more vulnerable to stochastic variation, bottlenecks and selective sweeps than autosomal loci."
Which basically means r1a frequency cannot be taken as it is and treat it as genome wide ancestry.

Of the rest of your arguments is simply known points I never objected to. I wasted time reading through all this for what???
The issue is If Steppe ancestry supposedly explains later high caste elite status, why do some of the most Steppe shifted Indian populations such as Rors, jatts lack Brahmin royal upper varna status?
I'm not disputing Steppe migration or elevated Steppe ancestry among Brahmins. I'm pointing out that some non Brahmin agrarian communities who form a lower caste status in varna, such as Rors Jats can have exceptionally high Steppe-related ancestry. So steppe ancestry by itself clearly cannot explain later ritual caste rank or their status.

You can be fresh off the boat steppe MLBA 100% r1a from Central Asia landing somewhere in Gandhara in 1000BCE. What do you think their your caste will be? If you figured that out then that answers all these questions. Not going tangential.

The caveat you mentioned was already compensated for in the same study. Feel free to read it for yourself.