Z-10 ME/P deliveries Updates: Pakistan Army Aviation.

[Bilal]

That's comparing apples to oranges. Once PAF establishes air dominance, F7's can do their bit as well, We used mirages in 2019 for cross border attack with legacy H2/H4's.

Unlike fighter jets, attack heli are not intended to fight opposing attack helis, their job is to destroy enemy's armor columns, and they operate in the same EW environment that is used to degrade enemy's situational awareness, so cobras despite being 40 odd years old are still potent platforms.

You want to come within 4km of indian armour formations with Cobra and shoot SACLOS missiles, maintaining line of sight through the process?

 

[Toxic]

That's comparing apples to oranges. Once PAF establishes air dominance, F7's can do their bit as well, We used mirages in 2019 for cross border attack with legacy H2/H4's.

Unlike fighter jets, attack heli are not intended to fight opposing attack helis, their job is to destroy enemy's armor columns, and they operate in the same EW environment that is used to degrade enemy's situational awareness, so cobras despite being 40 odd years old are still potent platforms.

F-7 won't do anything air dominance in far far from guaranteed, the mirages are far more useful because they can Carry reks and pgms while the F-7s can't do that.

Cobra's need to come less then 4 km of armoured formations to get their TOW's off during that entire process they are Stationary they will get torn apart by Indian Manpads and tunguska's which would be moving with the armored columns, I don't know what delusions some people have here.

 

[Lion]

I am surprised at the hissy fit thst a few of the members have thrown in response to my post.
This making them selves sound like they are the nationals of a nation which operated star ship enterprise in nos. And other warp speed capable star fighters.

But the reality is that the PAF operates around 150 legacy 3rd gen ac which become operational in the 1960s thats 60 plus years.

So why the ho ha over a attack hele fleet that is legacy but has been receiving contious upgrades since its induction, with a comprehensive mlu in early 2000s. Even thought they have seen extensive combat service but due the constant and consistent availability of spares, good support infrastructure and a dedicated and competent force of support and mantinance engineers. The cobra fleet has been kept in good air worthy condition to date.

Even though the arm chair warriors would like PAA to operate a fleet of warp speed capable and laser shooting helo.
But in the real world u got to make do ( to the best of ur ability and capability) with wt u got not wt u wanted n in the process not to sound like modi " aghar rafale hota", we know that went.

Yeah no, still bullshit. For one PAF does not operate “150” airframes from the 60s. 57 F7PGs were delivered, all of them were delivered post 2001. F7Ps have been retired.

Barring one or two cases, Only the ~67 ROSE Mirages (extensive rebuilds in 1988-91) remain actively operational - and to keep them operational PAF had to buy several dozen mirages or retire it’s own to cannibalize for Parts. Keep in mind a lot of the ROSE aircraft were low flight hour airframes bought from other countries, unlike the AH1s. PAF operates less than 80 legacy aircraft and only a fraction of those are actually as old as you claim without rebuilds.

Then there’s the other factor, not all airframes have the same service life and ability to be rebuilt. Clearly the MiG-21 derivatives didn’t hold the same safety standards as the Mirages despite equal levels of maintenance.

Do you have a record for how the AH1s hold up? Or again are we forgetting that at least 15-20% of the fleet is known to be lost in accidents or turned into monuments? Did all AH1s receive modernizations? (No), did all of them yet MLUed (no), did the MLU include airframe rebuilds?

The PAF does not want to operate Older aircraft, it does so out of necessity, the PAA would have retired the AH1 a decade ago if AH1Z and T129 deliveries had gone according to plan.

That being said, I never said all AH1s are retired or that they won’t continue to fly for a few more years, they will, because deliveries take time and until there’s enough Z10s the AH1s will keep carrying the burden, but this does not at all mean most of the fleet is operational or there’s some grand plan to keep these flying for several more years to come because they have any relevant use in modern conventional warfare.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Yeah no, still bullshit. For one PAF does not operate “150” airframes from the 60s. 57 F7PGs were delivered, all of them were delivered post 2001. F7Ps have been retired.

Barring one or two cases, Only the ~67 ROSE Mirages (extensive rebuilds in 1988-91) remain actively operational - and to keep them operational PAF had to buy several dozen mirages or retire it’s own to cannibalize for Parts. Keep in mind a lot of the ROSE aircraft were low flight hour airframes bought from other countries, unlike the AH1s. PAF operates less than 80 legacy aircraft and only a fraction of those are actually as old as you claim without rebuilds.

Then there’s the other factor, not all airframes have the same service life and ability to be rebuilt. Clearly the MiG-21 derivatives didn’t hold the same safety standards as the Mirages despite equal levels of maintenance.

Do you have a record for how the AH1s hold up? Or again are we forgetting that at least 15-20% of the fleet is known to be lost in accidents or turned into monuments? Did all AH1s receive modernizations? (No), did all of them yet MLUed (no), did the MLU include airframe rebuilds?

The PAF does not want to operate Older aircraft, it does so out of necessity, the PAA would have retired the AH1 a decade ago if AH1Z and T129 deliveries had gone according to plan.

That being said, I never said all AH1s are retired or that they won’t continue to fly for a few more years, they will, because deliveries take time and until there’s enough Z10s the AH1s will keep carrying the burden, but this does not at all mean most of the fleet is operational or there’s some grand plan to keep these flying for several more years to come because they have any relevant use in modern conventional warfare.

I agree, but have a question about the Mi35s, why were only 4 procedured and why did the program die.. how long can we fly them?

 

[RajaBaja]

They were manufactured for PAA, since then put on storage...

American have to do something about them ... one day.... Like..
handover to any 3rd party on deprecated value..... or offer Pakistan to get on subsided value..

Otherwise they serving no good to them .. except becomingly older day by day

Bro - Don't worry about the Americans. Their economy can take 1000 sitting AH1Z's. Worry about Pakistan and it's interests.

Chinese industry is now on par with the West. May be better than Europeans in some aspects. Z-10ME offers some tech that doesn't exist in AH-1Z's, nor will it come in it as it's really Apache's tech.

Z-10ME will get benefit from tech upgrades that are being put into Z-21, that's China's Apache if you will. So our units will be kept upgraded. Right now, its a world of difference in capability compared to older Cobras we had just a few weeks ago. We now have the helo, we need to get it in decent numbers 80-100, and upgrade the engine and tech with time.

Lastly, someone mentioned getting an assembly line. I am ALL for it as Z-10 will come in much cost effective due to China's focus on Z-21. If we can get a blue print of a Civilian design chassis, we can start a local helo commercial - military industry over time. But JUST for 40 or 80 helos for the Army, NO need for us to get assembly, etc, the numbers being acquired will be used for next 15-20 years. No more units needed, what would the assembly line do? That money should be put into PFX assembly.

 

[Toxic]

I agree, but have a question about the Mi35s, why were only 4 procedured and why did the program die.. how long can we fly them?

Change of plans mostly, I guess PA could have possibly wanted a dedicated COIN platform that could function both as a light transport and attack but in the end they probably decided that it wasn't worth investing resources into it.

 

[Lion]

I agree, but have a question about the Mi35s, why were only 4 procedured and why did the program die.. how long can we fly them?

There was an active effort to get more than 4, a Pakistani officer even confirmed to Janes that a second order had been placed. I don’t know the exact reason why that order was cancelled but it can be anything like Corruption/kickbacks being a part of it, a change in requirements (funds diverted to UCAVs/Other projects), refusal to rely more on Russia etc

They’re still fairly modern and the Mi-35 is known to be an easy to operate and reliable design which shares a lot of commonality with the Mi-17 platform (which Pakistan operates many of and has local maintenance and rebuild capabilities for). PAA should have no trouble keeping them operational as there’s a large aftermarket support for Mi-17 and Mi35 and availability of Parts from Ukraine, Russia, China and other Ex-USSR countries.

 

[Yasser76]

There was an active effort to get more than 4, a Pakistani officer even confirmed to Janes that a second order had been placed. I don’t know the exact reason why that order was cancelled but it can be anything like Corruption/kickbacks being a part of it, a change in requirements (funds diverted to UCAVs/Other projects), refusal to rely more on Russia etc

They’re still fairly modern and the Mi-35 is known to be an easy to operate and reliable design which shares a lot of commonality with the Mi-17 platform (which Pakistan operates many of and has local maintenance and rebuild capabilities for). PAA should have no trouble keeping them operational as there’s a large aftermarket support for Mi-17 and Mi35 and availability of Parts from Ukraine, Russia, China and other Ex-USSR countries.

In current climate I do not think we will touch anything Russian with a barge pole....

 

[RajaBaja]

There was an active effort to get more than 4, a Pakistani officer even confirmed to Janes that a second order had been placed. I don’t know the exact reason why that order was cancelled but it can be anything like Corruption/kickbacks being a part of it, a change in requirements (funds diverted to UCAVs/Other projects), refusal to rely more on Russia etc

They’re still fairly modern and the Mi-35 is known to be an easy to operate and reliable design which shares a lot of commonality with the Mi-17 platform (which Pakistan operates many of and has local maintenance and rebuild capabilities for). PAA should have no trouble keeping them operational as there’s a large aftermarket support for Mi-17 and Mi35 and availability of Parts from Ukraine, Russia, China and other Ex-USSR countries.

Putin only approved 4 due to Indian pressure. That also because he didn't want to say NO to Pakistan as he expects a better relationship in trade going forward.

 

[Michael]

However, a key goal for the lightweight requirement was actually stationary durability. The attack helicopter needed to be serviceable in places where they didn't have many -- if any -- GSE or special equipment. During tests, PAA literally just kept the T129 in a random place out in the open and in this very crude covered area to see how it'd fare overnight. The goal was to see if the T129 would start the next day without any issues (which it passed).

The PAA needs light attack helicopters. Perhaps we can approach this from a different perspective.

The PLAGF's arsenal includes a unique weapon. We often call it an "空中三蹦子 air tricycle." ------ It is assigned to the PLAGF's special forces for use in special missions such as raids and infiltrations.


Don't be fooled by its humble appearance.

1. The two-seater version is equipped with a 120HP gasoline piston engine, while the three-seater version is equipped with a 135HP engine. The noise level is exactly the same as that of a normal motorcycle. A silent exhaust pipe can be added as an additional option.
2. Maximum take-off weight 560kg, maximum speed 185km/h, maximum range 600km.
3. No professional pilot is required. Any soldier can master the craft after a few hours of training.
4. No dedicated landing area is required. Takeoff can be performed from any flat surface 10-20 meters . Vertical landing is also possible.
5. Most importantly: it's incredibly affordable. The price in China is around 100,000 RMB. If exported, the unit price wouldn't exceed $20,000 USD. If Pakistan were to import the technology and produce it domestically, the cost would be a little over $10,000 USD. The technology is so simple that Pakistan could achieve 100% local production, including all components.

It is very safe. Even if the engine shuts down in the air, it can still land safely.
If a tactical mission requires it, and it delivers the special forces to their destination, even if we throw it away, we won't feel it's too wasteful. It's too cheap.

 

[Metal 0-1]

That's something a rancher would buy to herd cattle.

 

[Yasser76]

That's something a rancher would buy to herd cattle.

Well Hamas used paragliders with engines to surprise Isrealis right?

 

[Metal 0-1]

Well Hamas used paragliders with engines to surprise Isrealis right?

I would to see you surprise Indian AD across LOC.

 

[RajaBaja]

The PAA needs light attack helicopters. Perhaps we can approach this from a different perspective.

The PLAGF's arsenal includes a unique weapon. We often call it an "空中三蹦子 air tricycle." ------ It is assigned to the PLAGF's special forces for use in special missions such as raids and infiltrations.
View attachment 139038
View attachment 139039
Don't be fooled by its humble appearance.

1. The two-seater version is equipped with a 120HP gasoline piston engine, while the three-seater version is equipped with a 135HP engine. The noise level is exactly the same as that of a normal motorcycle. A silent exhaust pipe can be added as an additional option.
2. Maximum take-off weight 560kg, maximum speed 185km/h, maximum range 600km.
3. No professional pilot is required. Any soldier can master the craft after a few hours of training.
4. No dedicated landing area is required. Takeoff can be performed from any flat surface 10-20 meters . Vertical landing is also possible.
5. Most importantly: it's incredibly affordable. The price in China is around 100,000 RMB. If exported, the unit price wouldn't exceed $20,000 USD. If Pakistan were to import the technology and produce it domestically, the cost would be a little over $10,000 USD. The technology is so simple that Pakistan could achieve 100% local production, including all components.

It is very safe. Even if the engine shuts down in the air, it can still land safely.
If a tactical mission requires it, and it delivers the special forces to their destination, even if we throw it away, we won't feel it's too wasteful. It's too cheap.

We needed a light combat helo, like the Z-10E. Not a light car helo for 3 troops to capture Delhi . I do see this copter's role with civilians though, our streets in big cities are getting over crowded so this might be our future vehicles, add an electric charging unit to it and there's the future.

 

[Yasser76]

I would to see you surprise Indian AD across LOC.

I think for SF raids it may be good, at low level, slow moving and small possibly easy to got lost in ground clutter or even mistake for flock of birds.