Z-10 ME/P deliveries Updates: Pakistan Army Aviation.

[Scorpio]

Pakistan Army "Cobra" attack helicopter is ready with percent weapon to strike it's enemy.

 

[Reichmarshal]

Cobras are not getting retired soon specially as we face insurgency but Cobras were not good enough against Indian Armor columns.

Its all about the money....as money becomes available all legacy fixed wing and rotarary ac across the board will retired and replaced with new/newer platforms.
Till then the cobras and the mirages n PG will have to do

 

[Reichmarshal]

Yeah no, still bullshit. For one PAF does not operate “150” airframes from the 60s. 57 F7PGs were delivered, all of them were delivered post 2001. F7Ps have been retired.

No shit Sherlock....both the mirages n the mig 21 first flew in the 60s. If ur freaking late to the party then it's ur fault.
PAF operated some 80 plus mirages n 50 plus f 7 pg...u can call it wt ever u want its still a mig 21

Barring one or two cases, Only the ~67 ROSE Mirages (extensive rebuilds in 1988-91) remain actively operational - and to keep them operational PAF had to buy several dozen mirages or retire it’s own to cannibalize for Parts. Keep in mind a lot of the ROSE aircraft were low flight hour airframes bought from other countries, unlike the AH1s. PAF operates less than 80 legacy aircraft and only a fraction of those are actually as old as you claim without rebuilds.

I can only laugh at ur whole thought process....just to justify ur argument ur contradicting ur orignal statement ie where u term the cobras as junk when in fact they have been receiving continues upgrades n a mlu in the early 2000s which haa kept the air worthy to date. But now when ur panty is in a knot u justify the continued service of the legacy fleet of mirages n f 7.

Then there’s the other factor, not all airframes have the same service life and ability to be rebuilt. Clearly the MiG-21 derivatives didn’t hold the same safety standards as the Mirages despite equal levels of maintenance.

That's a bs statement of a novice who is simply pissing in the wind.
The only reason why the PAF has been lucky with keeping the mirage fleet air worthy is the simple fact that they have been canabalising spares from other ac they have picked up from around the world. In addition to finding large nos. Of low hrs. Air frames from aus, Libya, Lebanon to name a few which they made air worthy and pressed into service.
MRF does not manufacture jack sh!t it at best is an assembler. Lots of retired PAF officers have made fortunes n continue to do, its a "دیہاڑی ' program.

Do you have a record for how the AH1s hold up? Or again are we forgetting that at least 15-20% of the fleet is known to be lost in accidents or turned into monuments? Did all AH1s receive modernizations? (No), did all of them yet MLUed (no), did the MLU include airframe rebuilds?

If they did not hold well they would not be flying. N don't throw nos around willy nilly.
The ones which received the upgrades and the best of the lot are in multan.

The PAF does not want to operate Older aircraft, it does so out of necessity, the PAA would have retired the AH1 a decade ago if AH1Z and T129 deliveries had gone according to plan.

Thats wt I have been telling u n the rest all along " its all Bout the money"... when funds become available legacy ac across the board will be replaced.
Till then they will serve along the newly acquired Chinese helos.

That being said, I never said all AH1s are retired or that they won’t continue to fly for a few more years, they will, because deliveries take time and until there’s enough Z10s the AH1s will keep carrying the burden, but this does not at all mean most of the fleet is operational or there’s some grand plan to keep these flying for several more years to come because they have any relevant use in modern conventional warfare.

If it floats ur boat then I say ground them all.

 

[Reichmarshal]

Do you really think PAF is going to send F-7pgs into combat? No the only reason they are in service is to maintain squadron strength, constant spares and good availability??? Do you not understand the fact these are more than 40 year old helicopters??

Ah yes making do by dooming pilots to death by sending them into combat in 40 year old coffins I don't know what kind of Lala land you live in.

If PAF does not intend to send its legacy ac into battle then wt freak do u think their purpose is !
That has to be the most idiotic line of thought ever... but ur next line is a doozy....

No ac force keeps ac for show, every type of ac has a purpose, we saw a glimpse of it in 2019. This in addition to the hi low mix, they all fit n perform their roles well.

N do u not understand that that ur f 16 are 40 plus year old air frame !

This has to be the most mind bending idiotic post on this form
Plz mods give him The waterr cooler

 

[Lion]

No shit Sherlock....both the mirages n the mig 21 first flew in the 60s. If ur freaking late to the party then it's ur fault.
PAF operated some 80 plus mirages n 50 plus f 7 pg...u can call it wt ever u want its still a mig 21

I can only laugh at ur whole thought process....just to justify ur argument ur contradicting ur orignal statement ie where u term the cobras as junk when in fact they have been receiving continues upgrades n a mlu in the early 2000s which haa kept the air worthy to date. But now when ur panty is in a knot u justify the continued service of the legacy fleet of mirages n f 7.

That's a bs statement of a novice who is simply pissing in the wind.
The only reason why the PAF has been lucky with keeping the mirage fleet air worthy is the simple fact that they have been canabalising spares from other ac they have picked up from around the world. In addition to finding large nos. Of low hrs. Air frames from aus, Libya, Lebanon to name a few which they made air worthy and pressed into service.
MRF does not manufacture jack sh!t it at best is an assembler. Lots of retired PAF officers have made fortunes n continue to do, its a "دیہاڑی ' program.


If they did not hold well they would not be flying. N don't throw nos around willy nilly.
The ones which received the upgrades and the best of the lot are in multan.

Thats wt I have been telling u n the rest all along " its all Bout the money"... when funds become available legacy ac across the board will be replaced.
Till then they will serve along the newly acquired Chinese helos.

If it floats ur boat then I say ground them all.

I am always impressed with the confidence with which people manage to be so incredibly incompetent, rude and uninformed. At least learn to type properly so I don’t have an aneurysm trying to translate illiterate stupidity into normal stupidity, all those words to say absolutely nothing of value.

1. Why does it matter when Mirages and F7s first flew? We are talking about the age of the airframe, the point is that the F7PG airframes were made post 2000, so even if the original design is from the 60s, it cannot be compared to an aircraft produced in the 60s, which is what you did previously. So You just proved my point? Even with the Mirages, the ROSE program was extremely thorough and different from a basic MLU, the entire airframe was rebuilt on a low flight hour aircraft for the ROSE program, the AH1 saw no such rebuild. How are these comparable?

2. Care to tell me what those “continuous updates” included? You won’t, because you don’t even know, nor do you have the ability to comprehend it. Did these upgrades allow them to field modern weaponry? No. Did these upgrades make them relevant for use in modern conventional warfare alongside Z-10s as you claimed so confidently? No. Did it give them modern countermeasures to defense themselves when they’re 3 kilometers away from an Indian armored column as you claimed they’d be? No. At the very least Did the MLU program have airframes strengthened/rebuilt to increase flying hours safely beyond current status? No. I asked you that, you failed to answer it, so I’m doing it for you. The answer is No.

3. Again, literally repeated what I said, that mirages are still flying because PAF had to buy dozens upon dozens of airframes to cannibalize them for parts, and even then they had to cannibalize more of their own aircraft. do we have such a parts fleet of AH-1s (no we don’t). Did you personally go to the ARF and confirm this theory of yours? Or did this also come from the same place all your other claims come from (somewhere below the waistline). You have never presented a single source for any claim you’ve made over the years you’ve posted on this forum, you just act like you know what you’re saying because someone you knew said something.

4. You yourself said that the “overwhelming majority” of the fleet is flying and that all of them got upgraded, now you backtrack and say that there’s some of them that are clearly “the best” - unlike you I actually do basic research before posting so my numbers aren’t “Willy nilly” - they’re confirmed by visual sightings. I like how you’ve conveniently ignored the basic facts that prove your claims wrong, like over 15% of the AH-1 fleet being out of service before even considering recent retirements.

Please don’t embarrass yourself further, every other time you make a post it’s laced with your egotistical rhetoric sounding like you know better than everyone because you were personally there when everything happened, it’s honestly pathetic, if you’re going to be a liar or do something for attention, at least try to be good at it. You never have any sources, you always claim bullshit, you are never respectful. You are the epitome of “my Chachas friends pet dogs goldfish was in the army and he told me so!”

 

[Lion]

If PAF does not intend to send its legacy ac into battle then wt freak do u think their purpose is !
That has to be the most idiotic line of thought ever... but ur next line is a doozy....

No ac force keeps ac for show, every type of ac has a purpose, we saw a glimpse of it in 2019. This in addition to the hi low mix, they all fit n perform their roles well.

N do u not understand that that ur f 16 are 40 plus year old air frame !

This has to be the most mind bending idiotic post on this form
Plz mods give him The waterr cooler

Do you care to think that maybe if everyone thinks you’re wrong, you’re the idiot and not the person you’re calling an idiot?

Their purpose is to be OCUs, to be last resort aircraft, to be training platforms, to fill numbers so pilots have an aircraft to fly and stay in form for when a newer aircraft is available. If you’re so in the know, explain how the PAF will realistically use legacy aircraft in a modern Air-War scenario? Have you considered that using them as anything but a last resort will be throwing away a pilot that costs more to train than the aircraft? Modern War isn’t all out anyways, we’re seeing that it’s much smaller skirmishes, even 1999 was like that, the PAF knows it doesn’t need 500 fighter jets, it’s not replacing legacy aircraft 1:1…I’m not sure why I bother explaining this to you, but I hope it will help someone who actually had 2nd grade level comprehension abilities.

Again with the “F-16 is old too!” Bullshit. Those airframes have been rebuild and strengthened to increase their lifespan under specific programs (SLEP, FALCONUP, FALCON STAR). Not all airframes are made with such rebuilds in mind. The F-16 is.

 

[Oscar]

If PAF does not intend to send its legacy ac into battle then wt freak do u think their purpose is !
That has to be the most idiotic line of thought ever... but ur next line is a doozy....

No ac force keeps ac for show, every type of ac has a purpose, we saw a glimpse of it in 2019. This in addition to the hi low mix, they all fit n perform their roles well.

N do u not understand that that ur f 16 are 40 plus year old air frame !

This has to be the most mind bending idiotic post on this form
Plz mods give him The waterr cooler

Emotional statements don't help anyone in discussions.
F-16s are 40 year old airframes?

The original peace gate are beyond 40 - many being built in 1981.
The embargoed released Peace gate-IIs delivered from mothballed stocks are less.
The Peace Drive even lesser.
You are welcome to fact check your statement here. https://www.f-16.net/aircraft-database/F-16/serials-and-inventory/airforce/PAF/

Airframe age is just one part of the equation - hours on the airframe may matter more if the aircraft are kept in generally good environments such as dry , moderate heat locations which technically Sargodha could qualify as especially with some of the hangars having environmental controls. they have received various upgrades in terms of both airframe life extensions and avionics(which are also now approaching obsolesce.
Which means that they consume a lot more spares than they did after each subsequent life extension and upgrade.


As far as the AH-1s are concerned they have zero survivability in most day 1 scenarios against India.
More importantly while they have been to Kamra initially for some basic upgrades and received some overhauls - they are also very old - and while helicopters have less stress on their frames compared to fighter aircraft they are at the end of their useful life.

They can still be put into the air and kept flying for another 10 years and excellent for taking out individuals with AKs or RPGs at best. But throwing them east is cannon fodder at best.

 

[Fatman17]

This thread has really gone offtopic. Time to shut it down or rename the thread to.
This and That!!!

 

[Fatman17]

 

[Yasser76]

This thread has really gone offtopic. Time to shut it down or rename the thread to.
This and That!!!

Take'em down F Man!

 

[RajaBaja]

If PAF does not intend to send its legacy ac into battle then wt freak do u think their purpose is !
That has to be the most idiotic line of thought ever... but ur next line is a doozy....

No ac force keeps ac for show, every type of ac has a purpose, we saw a glimpse of it in 2019. This in addition to the hi low mix, they all fit n perform their roles well.

N do u not understand that that ur f 16 are 40 plus year old air frame !

This has to be the most mind bending idiotic post on this form
Plz mods give him The waterr cooler

With India massing up the S-400 and internally made AD missiles on Pakistani border, there is no use of F-7's, even no use for Mirages outside of a low penetration ground attack on IA formations *IF* we go to a traditional war. Which I doubt we will. Future wars will be fought with 4.5, 5th gen fighter jets, missiles, drones and standoff munitions. India in a conflict, can target inside Pakistani airspace like 60-70% of it.

The only issue is, if we just send near 160 jets to retirement, what would we do with those pilots? These can on paper provide coverage on Afghanistan and Baluchistan border because there is nothing to counter. The sooner we can retire these and buy or build a 4.5th gen platform, the better it is for us.

 

[Yasser76]

With India massing up the S-400 and internally made AD missiles on Pakistani border, there is no use of F-7's, even no use for Mirages outside of a low penetration ground attack on IA formations *IF* we go to a traditional war. Which I doubt we will. Future wars will be fought with 4.5, 5th gen fighter jets, missiles, drones and standoff munitions. India in a conflict, can target inside Pakistani airspace like 60-70% of it.

The only issue is, if we just send near 160 jets to retirement, what would we do with those pilots? These can on paper provide coverage on Afghanistan and Baluchistan border because there is nothing to counter. The sooner we can retire these and buy or build a 4.5th gen platform, the better it is for us.

F-7PG can be handy in anti-drone and anti-chopper role I imagine

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

I have a question, do the Z-10ME that Pakistan has inducted lack anything that T129-ATAK has in their current form?

 

[Pak-Warrior]

F-7PG can be handy in anti-drone and anti-chopper role I imagine

Nope bro.

K-8P can be more handy in anti-drone role. F-7PG is very fast aircraft, designed as interceptor. Not designed to take out slow moving drones.

There is no anti-chopper role. Their choppers won't come unless certain conditions are met. They will operate at very low altitude, in cover of their Air defense. Secondly, how we are going to defend F-7PG if there's any hostile fighter aircraft arrives. Irony is that our top tier aircrafts can take out ANY IAF aircrafts. BUT F-7PG is such an aircraft which is inferior to every IAF aircraft. So PAF would never give such a trophy to the enemy. Losing a jet means losing pilot and airforce prestige, plus giving a morale booster to enemy and a fighter aircraft kill score. You do that only if mission was absolutely critical, could not have achieved by any other means. Here, we are trying to forcefully find the utility for F-7pg and trying to fit it somewhere.

However, I think the only role for F-7PGs is covering airspace at our western borders + keeping the squadron and pilots active. They fly, they practice. Lastly, F-7PGs is very last backup because if a total war erupts and both airforces are nearly destroyed and both are left only with backup planes as old migs and F-7s, only then they will do their bit. Other than that I don't see em as anti-drone or anti-chopper or any role like these..

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

F-7PG can be handy in anti-drone and anti-chopper role I imagine

Under 100% "data-link" condition while being an integral part of the "kill web", these jets can be shot into the "sweet spot" to take the shot (even an SD10 would work)....