Z-10 ME/P deliveries Updates: Pakistan Army Aviation.

[Fatman17]

I don't want to derail the thread, but what you said I've heard a billion times already, not knowing anything about operations etc... So its a bunch of gobbleddegook, I still hope that we use the new fancy choppers to good use, specially in KPK and Balochistan, base mai sardane se tu behter hai.

The 20 odd Cobras are still effective in that role

 

[RajaBaja]

Not so sure. Maybe a step below. Let's wait and see

What I meant was that It's the JF-17 of heli's. You pack a punch like Apache but it's weight and some other sensors are somewhat lower in range and capability.

Z-21 is a true answer to Apache. Hopefully, we can acquire them in a couple of squadrons when the platform matures.

 

[LX1111]

Here I commemorate the Z-10 was once abandoned Pakistan
Although the AH-1Z is ahead of the Z-10 in most indicators,
But according to 扬基, these three Z-10s were returned to AVIC, they did not even undergo basic maintenance.
This is somewhat unpleasant

 

[RajaBaja]

What a ridiculous statement. The Americans can easily export a lot of AH64E to India and even provide India with assembly lines.
This has shown after end the Afghan war, India is far more important than Pakistan.
Pakistan can't buy back those AH-1Zs no matter how much money it spends
View attachment 138136

I don't think you know this issue deep down. The AH-1Z vipers were promised to us as we took a huge toll in WOT. We were inclined with a JV with Turkey. But because we were supposed to get FMS through the US due to WOT, and for that, the price is hiked by usually 20-30% to benefit American seller companies.

But then we were told no FMS, and buy these at the assessed price. Why would we want to pay 20-30% more when at this new cost of AH-1Z, we could get two choppers from Turkey or China? So we backed out.

If we tell the US tomorrow we are going to pay cash, we can get the AH-1Z. With current situation, we pay cash and can get Apache's also. But obviously, our budget is less.

Secondly, we want to get a heli platform similar to how we did with the JF-17. Z-10ME is a mid range heli. Just like J-10C for China in today's time. While China's needs are heavier platforms. When China matures the Z-21 and it's already created an armed version of Z-20, the importance for Z-10 will decrease. We may acquire TOT in the future from China or at least acquire more and keep a full sustain capability here in Pakistan. Because for our purposes, these in large numbers are good.

We will at some point, become a partner in Turkey's heli's also. Hopefully after 2028 when our economy is re-baselined and our defense budget goes up.

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

True. They're not sanctioned like the peacegate viper. We can have those delivered if we pay in cash upfront. No more FMS.

Are you sure? Why prevent us getting T129 ATAKs?

 

[RajaBaja]

The Americans don't care about the price of the AH-1Z at all. If they care, they should deliver the AH-1Z parked in the desert to Pakistan.
9 AH-1Zs can be sold for at least $1 billion
The reality is that the United States will not allow Pakistan to obtain any advanced weapons, whether it is AH-1Z or F16V
Whether it is Biden or Trump

You are wrong on both accounts. You don't follow geopolitics. Especially right now. We can pay and get F-16V's and Cobras. But we don't want the F-16V or the Cobras at this point. When J-10C's and Z-10's can do the job at half the cost. We prefer a cheaper alternative without strings, unless the US wants to be a good partner and absorb 60% of the cost and put no restriction on use against India?

We know how to negotiate. Didn't you post above how we "returned" Z-10C's? We got them for evaluation and we did the evaluation. We gave a list of improvements back to the manufacturer and those were added into the new version Z-10ME that we purchased. So we know how to negotiate and evaluate and improve a weapon system in real conditions.

@Fatman17 Flag check or vpn check please sir?

 

[Metal 0-1]

Are you sure? Why prevent us getting T129 ATAKs?

No export license for T-129's engine

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

No export license for T-129's engine

That's my point. They approved export licenses for T129 ATAK's for the Philippines military but not Pakistan. Why is that?

 

[Metal 0-1]

That's my point. They approved export licenses for T129 ATAK's for the Philippines military but not Pakistan. Why is that?

Idk
Could be a political move to force Pakistan to pay for the AH-1Zs that have rolled out of factory and keeping them in storage would also cost them money.

 

[LX1111]

We know how to negotiate. Didn't you post above how we "returned" Z-10C's? We got them for evaluation and we did the evaluation. We gave a list of improvements back to the manufacturer and those were added into the new version Z-10ME that we purchased. So we know how to negotiate and evaluate and improve a weapon system in real conditions

The subsequent improvements of Z-10 have nothing to do with Pakistan.
Subsequent improvements to the Z-10 were only made based on the PLAF's own needs.
Pakistan has never committed to purchasing the Z-10 if it is improved to a certain extent.
Pakistan chose AH-1Z and T129
However, both aircraft were rejected because the United States.

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

Idk
Could be a political move to force Pakistan to pay for the AH-1Zs that have rolled out of factory and keeping them in storage would also cost them money.

They were simply forcing Pakistan to get the Taliban onto the negotiating table.

After the withdrawal, they didn't like how Pakistan celebrated the Taliban takeover.

 

[Yasser76]

You are wrong on both accounts. You don't follow geopolitics. Especially right now. We can pay and get F-16V's and Cobras. But we don't want the F-16V or the Cobras at this point. When J-10C's and Z-10's can do the job at half the cost. We prefer a cheaper alternative without strings, unless the US wants to be a good partner and absorb 60% of the cost and put no restriction on use against India?

We know how to negotiate. Didn't you post above how we "returned" Z-10C's? We got them for evaluation and we did the evaluation. We gave a list of improvements back to the manufacturer and those were added into the new version Z-10ME that we purchased. So we know how to negotiate and evaluate and improve a weapon system in real conditions.

@Fatman17 Flag check or vpn check please sir?

Yeah, I smelt it too

First French flag, then US flag, then Chinese flag. They never stop....

 

[RajaBaja]

Ok Ranjeet. I know the details while you just have deep emotional issues with Pakistan. I can't help you. The moral of the story is, we always get what we need for our nation. End of story.

 

[Jeremy]

The Z-10 partially matured specifically because of the issues Pakistan had with it, credit where due to China, they take customer feedback seriously and keep coming back to Pakistan after improvements until the platform gets accepted. It’s not the first time they’ve applied this approach, a prime example was the F7PGs development, and even now when their industry has gotten so much better than before, they still take feedback and apply it.

I watched the documentary about the development of the Z-10 helicopter. It was truly an arduous journey.

Due to poverty, backwardness, and a weak industrial foundation—compounded by Western technological blockades—China's military engineers overcame immense challenges. Every component, from the rotor blades and engines to the airframe materials and structural design, required painstaking research, countless experiments, and relentless breakthroughs.

Starting from scratch, they achieved full independent development, culminating in later export variants like the Z-10ME. While it may not be the best in the world, it stands as a crucial stepping stone toward the future.

 

[RajaBaja]

That's my point. They approved export licenses for T129 ATAK's for the Philippines military but not Pakistan. Why is that?

Pakistan's original request was in Biden's early time. Since then Pakistan didn't make a second request. With US, we want to maintain an ever growing business and people to people relationships.

For Turkish helo engines, there will be two options in a couple of years. 1: Turkish engine will mature and 2: Ukraine

I think there are other higher priority items on the list so this might get revisited around 2028 when the product matures. We have Z-10's now meeting our requirements. If Z-10 somehow becomes a TOT related project and we are satisfied with this product overtime, a JF-17 like scenario may be repeated.

Our leaderships wants "make and made in Pakistan". We have a high number of engineering graduates every year. It's time to train them on advance tech and build as much locally as possible.