Yeah, but $$ is kind of what Pakistan is desperately short on. As i said, are the upgrades possible? Yes is it cost effective for PN given the state of the ship (ie limited space, efficiency, and comfort for crew)? Not so sure. A new F22p was $175M. I think an upgrade with a new VLS and all new radars ect could cost more than the ships maybe still worth which is why replacing FM90 with Levent is most cost effective. Trade 8 missiles with 12km range (although only 8 against fast targets like bramos) to 21 missiles of 11km range (levent missile) against all targets.
Zulfiquar-class frigate (F22P)
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they werent mlu just maintenance.
FuturePAF
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Considering all the platforms the PN is considering to equip with the CAMM-ER, will the missile be made in Pakistan under license?
Secondly, will the Type 517 long range radar on the F-22P be replaced with a variant of the Nebo-UM (a 3D VHF Radar)?
]
This radar coupled with an upgrade to the same main radar as on the Tughuril (Type 054A/P)’s SR2410C AESA radar, should make detecting and localizing targets more easier.
www.navalnews.com
These upgrades along with 4 fixed EO/IR sensors on the main mast would help cover all ways to detect stealthy, low RCS, and low IR systems similar to the LRASM, one of the hardest challenges to detect and provide a targeting solution for air defense missiles. Putting a Type 1130 CIWS just above the hangar door and a FM-3000N on a pedestal right behind it and just high enough above coupled with the CAMM-ER missiles at the front of the ship would allow the ship to have multiple chances to engage threats before the reach the ship.
With a very long range radar, if operating near the coast, perhaps the ship will be able to call in air support to provide it cover from land based QRF fighters to defend it against enemy fighters that could launch Brahmos missiles against it.
Btw, any info if the exhausts are getting an upgrade to reduce the IR signature/Smoke issue? Also, any indication the ship is getting a towed sonar array and/or an upgrade to the Z-9 helicopter’s dipping sonar for ASW?
This ship could be a decent enough modern “all-rounder” to cover the edges of the EEZ and SLOCs.
Secondly, will the Type 517 long range radar on the F-22P be replaced with a variant of the Nebo-UM (a 3D VHF Radar)?
Obviously the full land based system may not be able to be put on a ship the size of the F-22P, but a variant adapted for size might be a useful upgrade. Here is the official Russian promo video on the radar from the show “Combat Approved”:
This radar coupled with an upgrade to the same main radar as on the Tughuril (Type 054A/P)’s SR2410C AESA radar, should make detecting and localizing targets more easier.
Type 054 A/P Frigate For Pakistan Navy to Feature New Radar Configuration - Naval News
A recent photo of Pakistan's first Type 054 A/P Frigate shows the new radar configuration that has been selected by the Pakistan Navy. This is the first of four vessels on order by Pakistan. It is currently at fitting out stage at Hudong Zhonghua shipyard in China.
www.navalnews.com
These upgrades along with 4 fixed EO/IR sensors on the main mast would help cover all ways to detect stealthy, low RCS, and low IR systems similar to the LRASM, one of the hardest challenges to detect and provide a targeting solution for air defense missiles. Putting a Type 1130 CIWS just above the hangar door and a FM-3000N on a pedestal right behind it and just high enough above coupled with the CAMM-ER missiles at the front of the ship would allow the ship to have multiple chances to engage threats before the reach the ship.
With a very long range radar, if operating near the coast, perhaps the ship will be able to call in air support to provide it cover from land based QRF fighters to defend it against enemy fighters that could launch Brahmos missiles against it.
Btw, any info if the exhausts are getting an upgrade to reduce the IR signature/Smoke issue? Also, any indication the ship is getting a towed sonar array and/or an upgrade to the Z-9 helicopter’s dipping sonar for ASW?
This ship could be a decent enough modern “all-rounder” to cover the edges of the EEZ and SLOCs.
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FuturePAF
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Chirulz
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Is it really possible to integrate CAMM ER with Chinese systems on F22P, the more realistic changes may include better Chinese sensors along with FM3000N if possible. Technical and Cost factors are pretty much there.Considering all the platforms the PN is considering to equip with the CAMM-ER, will the missile be made in Pakistan under license?
Secondly, will the Type 517 long range radar on the F-22P be replaced with a variant of the Nebo-UM (a 3D VHF Radar)?
Obviously the full land based system may not be able to be put on a ship the size of the F-22P, but a variant adapted for size might be a useful upgrade. Here is the official Russian promo video on the radar from the show “Combat Approved”:
]
View attachment 31877
This radar coupled with an upgrade to the same main radar as on the Tughuril (Type 054A/P)’s SR2410C AESA radar, should make detecting and localizing targets more easier.
Type 054 A/P Frigate For Pakistan Navy to Feature New Radar Configuration - Naval News
A recent photo of Pakistan's first Type 054 A/P Frigate shows the new radar configuration that has been selected by the Pakistan Navy. This is the first of four vessels on order by Pakistan. It is currently at fitting out stage at Hudong Zhonghua shipyard in China.
These upgrades along with 4 fixed EO/IR sensors on the main mast would help cover all ways to detect stealthy, low RCS, and low IR systems similar to the LRASM, one of the hardest challenges to detect and provide a targeting solution for air defense missiles. Putting a Type 1130 CIWS just above the hangar door and a FM-3000N on a pedestal right behind it and just high enough above coupled with the CAMM-ER missiles at the front of the ship would allow the ship to have multiple chances to engage threats before the reach the ship.
With a very long range radar, if operating near the coast, perhaps the ship will be able to call in air support to provide it cover from land based QRF fighters to defend it against enemy fighters that could launch Brahmos missiles against it.
Btw, any info if the exhausts are getting an upgrade to reduce the IR signature/Smoke issue? Also, any indication the ship is getting a towed sonar array and/or an upgrade to the Z-9 helicopter’s dipping sonar for ASW?
This ship could be a decent enough modern “all-rounder” to cover the edges of the EEZ and SLOCs.
FuturePAF
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Pakistan could procure the CAMM-ER and built variants under license in Pakistan (including one with a seeker and other components optimized to work with the Chinese radar).
Agreed that those are more realistic. But i think it is more due to cost. The reason is that getting CAMM-ER into the F-22Ps Would require removing FM-90 and modifying the deck it sits on to then house a VLS. The FM3000N can simply exchange the launcher and mechanisms of the FM90 for the FM3000N without much deck modifications and likely no lower deck mods needed whereas for any VLS there would likely need to have lower deck mods. There is more than likely enough space given the 8 cell MK41 placed on the Thai Naresuan class (which is also a variant of the type 053 frigate). That said such mods are likely more expensive, and may not be practical for a ship with limited potential such as F-22P.
The sensors would need to be changed anyways with any upgrade whether that be FM3000N OR CAMM-ER. If keeping the FM3000N, they will likely get SR2410C in place of the Type 360. If the CAMM-ER will be used, id imagine 360 gets replaced by Smart S mk2 or CENK-S. Probably would then also need to upgrade the CMS with Genesis advent.
Those are there to replace the old guidance illuminators for the HQ-16 as the 054A cannot survive a swarm attack due to the old illuminators being limited to 2 missiles per channel. i.e 8 total hq-16s being guided at once, however, that realistically means 4 inbound missile interceptions at once, so any complex attack from multiple sides with large groups of missiles could lead the 054a's very, very vunerable.
They wont be chinese systems, the PN will upgrade them to the same standards as the other vessels. Its pretty clear the PN is standardising its 'main' surface fleet with the same weapons and sensors. Nothing states that the F22P must be fitted with Chinese sensors. At its core, its a floating bit of metal- or just like a house, you furnish it how you want- funnily, this is how PN does things from KSEW. They buy the empty hull and integrate and fit weapons and sensors at PN dockyard, KSEW does none of that, just delivers empty hulls.
I also dont understand why cost is entirely relevant, it is cheaper in every way to add that capability to hull's you already own, as opposed to buy new hull's and refit them with the same capability. The PN picking a new host of Chinese sensors is pointless because the PN is placing large orders for those western sensors and systems, atleast 10-12 radar sets, vls, etc confirmed, with likely further orders on the horizon as yarmook batch 2 orders will likely continue to flow and further Jinnah class possibly, it only makes sense to standardise.
Adding the same sensors and systems to the F22P's will turn them into a vessel being capable of handling those high end threats, that too, without the same limitations as the 054A which were only procured due to the short delivery timeline, the extremely low cost(subsidised by the Chinese Navy), service history with the PLAN and most importantly the line of credit lol.
No point, literally none whatsoever, likely not even possible, the CAMM-ER is the latest and greatest in class out of Europe, they will die before allowing commonality with Chinese sensors.
Why does the F-22P have limited potential lol.
This is what i dont understand. The Narusean class literally started off life the same as the F-22P, look now. The only reason it had limited potential was because the PN was broke and just needed ships. The hull is as capable as the weapons and sensors onboard.
There is also nothing realistic about the PN just adopting a weapons system, the FM3000N is launched via Chinese UVLS which is absolutely huge, that wouldn't even fit on Jinnah let alone F-22P. The FM-3000N is a missile that fits within the same class as the CAMM-ER but is likely to be worse for the same mission. Assuming you mean the FL-3000N/HQ-10, it is purely for PMDS, once again, in our threat environment, there is a reason why the PN has had to turn to CAMM-ER to be able to adequately deal with the threats posed. PMDS and other solutions just dont do it, CAMM-ER was designed with the Russian threat in mind, the Indians pose the same threat, i.e hypersonics. The interception ranges of these sort of PMDS drastically reduce to 'too close to comfort' for supersonics and then are likely very further degraded for hypersonics, posing the question of residual damage and how much they would be able to degrade the impact. This is why they are the 'last ditch' interception layer, like APS, where youll take damage, but mostly survive, maybe with a mission kill.
If you use the argument that the PLAN deploys the HQ-10 on its ships so it must be okay- unfortunately, the FL-3000N is not the same as the HQ-10 and has a different seeker and aerodynamic configuration, it also seems to be lacking behind the RIM-116 which in its block 2 form is significantly more capable. On top of that, once again, on their high end ships, forming part of the layer of defense.
Deck modifications are likely going to be the cheapest part of it all. the actual VLS system itself may end up being the costly part, but the great thing is they can be re used on other hull's so its effectively a one time cost.
The F-22P will probably be equipped similarly to Yarmook Batch 2, the CMS was always going to need to be upgraded, these ships were bought on a shoestring budget so its not unlikely theyre using that same chinese crap developed in the 80's.
"limited space, efficiency and crew comfort"
On training deployments, including port visits to the UK, the F-22P carried literally double the crew it usually does, in excess of 200 sailors.
Space limited for what, because the hull is perfectly capable of carrying those sensors and weapons.
For crew? Clearly cant be that limited if they're able to do months long deployments with double the crew.
The hull's themselves cost around $125m- of course, including the weapons and sensors fits.
A MK41 cell costs roughly 500k, a GWS-26 cell, one thats as dumb as it gets and as simple as it gets for VLS, likely costs nowhere near, i wouldnt be shocked if an 8 cell GWS launcher was sub 2m excl integration cost. Lets be silly and assume it was $4m for the GWS launcher and $1m for the integration, we now have $5m for VLS.
Lets peg the $8m cost of a smart S mk2 at 10-12m instead, you can pretty quickly see that a whole systems and sensors upgrade, excluding munitions would not exceed 50-60m per hull, which for the capability it brings- i.e 4 more high end vessels capable of meeting any regional threat, is a great option and price.
That levent range against Brahmos type targets is probably nonsense anyway and is alot likelier to be alot shorter lol.
PS, this is a dead argument anyway, the PN is seriously evaluating CAMM-ER for F-22P.
Its not a secret the PN wants VLS on those hulls, they tried to go for HQ-16 but its too big and a pretty poor missile by today's standards, logically, CAMM-ER was the next step. I have seen the studies first hand, the PN is going all in, they even want shore based CAMM-ER batteries, safe to say, budget isnt a super big concern when it comes to the PN's shopping list evidently with all of these projects going on.
What's the progress on this so far? and What type of PN's own air-defense presently at ports / naval bases ? Or is it the PAF / PA air-defense protecting these critical installations against missile attack ?
I know the ships itself can be deployed and tasked to protect these installations but if it's a surprise attack / sudden escalation / worst case scenario (kinda pearl harbour moment) then simply not enough time to deploy ships as supersonic missiles only take 2-3 mins to reach main port / base. So, in that scenario i think land base AD could really help save most of navy.
FuturePAF
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Good post.
If they are willing to spend what it takes, then that is another issue. The issue with the F-22P not being as capable as it might need to be, for the ASW role, is because of it’s current propulsion being relatively noisy compared to other options.
In a MLU, if they are willing to upgrade the propulsion, going to IEP, separating the screw from the engines directly, the ship might be quiet enough to function in modern ASW (not to mention the need for a towed array). Perhaps going to a single CODLOG arrangement similar to the new Type 26 of the RN using a single QC-280 gas turbine engine.
GH Turbine GT-25000 - Wikipedia
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They conducted simulations against hypersonic threats
PAF+PA are in charge of protection, with PN marines having some shorad, mistral, AAA etc.
Those lessons from '71 are driving the PN into proper base protection
I dont think the PN ever envisioned F22P as an ASW vessel, afaik they arent equipped with the needed sensors for such a mission. Though, a propulsion upgrade wouldn't be a bad idea, im not sure if its up there in the list of priorities
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