Joe Shearer
Professional
Sorry.
Said bitterly, with irony and much more. Editing it out, please do likewise.
Parsis and Hindutva's Ethnic Nationalism in India
- Thread starter vsdoc
- Start date
- Status
Said bitterly, with irony and much more. Editing it out, please do likewise.
vsdoc
Elite Member
- Thread starter
- #258
Iran president welcomes boosting ties with India's Parsi community
Tehran, Feb 17, IRNA – Iranian President welcomed promotion of ties with the India's Parsi community and called for their participation in the country's investment projects.
'Progress of the country is the progress of all Iranians, our ancient culture and civilization,' President Rouhani said in a meeting with the India's Parsi community on Saturday.
The President urged the India's Parsi community to help to transfer of technology and science to Iran.
He referred to the American and European companies' interest in investing in Iran, and called for the Indian Parsi community's active presence in Iran.
Iranian President is in New Delhi for an official visit. Some 15 MoU's were signed in the meeting between the two sides' officials on Saturday.
Iran president welcomes boosting ties with India's Parsi community
Tehran, Feb 17, IRNA – Iranian President welcomed promotion of ties with the India's Parsi community and called for their participation in the country's investment projects.
en.irna.ir
@indushek
Cheers, Doc
Sharma Ji
Elite Member
pahayIran president welcomes boosting ties with India's Parsi community
Tehran, Feb 17, IRNA – Iranian President welcomed promotion of ties with the India's Parsi community and called for their participation in the country's investment projects.
'Progress of the country is the progress of all Iranians, our ancient culture and civilization,' President Rouhani said in a meeting with the India's Parsi community on Saturday.
The President urged the India's Parsi community to help to transfer of technology and science to Iran.
He referred to the American and European companies' interest in investing in Iran, and called for the Indian Parsi community's active presence in Iran.
Iranian President is in New Delhi for an official visit. Some 15 MoU's were signed in the meeting between the two sides' officials on Saturday.
Iran president welcomes boosting ties with India's Parsi community
Tehran, Feb 17, IRNA – Iranian President welcomed promotion of ties with the India's Parsi community and called for their participation in the country's investment projects.
@indushek
Cheers, Doc
Waz
Administrator
I think it's settings bro.
vsdoc
Elite Member
- Thread starter
- #262
I'm clueless. Went to the Forum settings, as well to (All) Site Settings on my phone browser. Can't see anything similar.
Under Preferences (forum), for Style I have use default style : v1 chosen.
Cheers, Doc
Damn, I chose v2 and everything went black.
Reversing swiftly ...
Under Preferences (forum), for Style I have use default style : v1 chosen.
Cheers, Doc
Damn, I chose v2 and everything went black.
Reversing swiftly ...
M
Mr X
Guest
Please share the screenshot in a relevant thread, you can PM me if you want
Sharma Ji
Elite Member
'view desktop version' kar k there should be an option on your mobile browser.. chrome, right ?
Nilgiri
INT'L MOD
Its good to see you here again @vsdoc and by various circumstances this new PDF ark with an amnesty/reset (I think you were permabanned too in old one?) for fresh start on hopefully quality conversation.
Please add me to your tags for quality threads/posts.... I very much enjoyed reading the article at start.
I can vouch for this.
HK Parsis, one was my 4th grade teacher whom I remember very fondly. She was also the adjacent class teacher in 6th grade. Her hubby was a very friendly chap when he would drop by (both their kids attended same school, though different grades to mine).
One assembly, there was a "languages of the world" where each teacher would give a sample of any non-english language they knew, and she picked her mother tongue Gujarati heh (and I found it odd since she always said she was from Bombay, and my knowledge was limited on that stuff back then).
Everything all makes perfect sense in hindsight now with much more knowledge of Parsis I have now.
Definitely old money (my English friend, who's own dad was quite wealthy living in same neighbourhood as her I suppose... described her house as a "mansion" and she had a great car among the teachers etc etc).
Actually it was my dad who first brought this up (why didnt you tell me your teacher is a parsi?) after a parent-teacher meeting....and I responded with whats a parsi?
Then my dad gave me a summary of the Parsis and over time the longer story and just how much he admired them.
Hard to find a "parsi-phile" greater than my dad....most if not all formative background repertoire regd Manekshaw, Bhaba and above all Tata (who had most direct impact on my dad's life*) and many more....I got from him.
*2 concrete ways: tata scholarship and at IISc too.
He can give hours and hours hagiography on Jamsetji alone and always with some new anecdotes regarding his experience+gratitude with Tata+IISc pertinent to this stuff.
As for Parsi road names in HK, I am most cognisant of Mody Road...really nice waterfront part of kowloon and also our favourite indian restaurant was there at the time. I can actually smell that harbourfront as I type this....core root memory stuff.
Kowloon cricket club came up for convo with @Fatman17 recently too elsewhere, HN Mody was instrumental in founding of that as well alongside the HK uni and a number of other institutions.
Regarding the original article you posted and the larger theme, its quite simple really.
The social conservatism (as it exists) of the Indian Hindu population intersects very well with the social conservatism Parsi one (as it exists) for a number of reasons and these details are explored (as perceived/realised by these social conservatisms) pretty well by the author. The small population of the Parsis is also a major contributing factor in this too (just like it would be if roles/histories were hypothetically reversed some how).
Where social conservatism of any community has lesser intersection with another, there will be friction points and worse....any population has the same % of ready agents to harness the zero sum fight for primacy/supremacy at cost of another....that will make use of these potentials (and then move to the next set of identities/memories in another later age for the same purpose). It becomes the work of humanistic enlightenment to develop principles to put significant resistance to this potential....by establishing self-evident truths agreed upon by all (things that preserve and sustain all human life, the role of the golden/silver rule on setting up principles past this and so on).
i.e How society addresses, puts into practice and resolves this is a longer complicated topic to get into. Things like why I propose secular nationalism + classic liberalism (at least what I call them, definitions do vary) in most if not all cases for the current societies of the world to put things in optimal balance to help as many people "get out of this mess" (a mess I see from the unenligthened buildup given the immensity of the void it will always comes from, what we dont know in the time we have down here is always going to be infinite....and so our fear to harness from that is always going to have infinite potential)
I could write up similar length article for example just from firsthand experience and history I know regarding English-speaking and French-speaking Canada (which also used to take a religious angle as well when this was more dominant part of social conservatism here) to the degrees that arose here as they did and still do. The archetype of what the existence of identities inherited from history, preserved and present in the current time...what are the good and bad of all of this, how do they get harnessed and deployed. What is created, what is squandered, what is destroyed from all of it.
How politics adapted/steered this in chicken and the egg way is also particular to this place (there were 3 distinct approaches/eras in Quebec w.r.t larger Canada** post ww2), but follow some general larger themes to what resolves and reconciles with time (worldwide)...and what doesn't and/or flares up again. These flare ups can be quite potent (mostly just in discourse thankfully) even here where things are assumed to have settled. It takes many years of friendship to sometimes get say a Quebecer to open up about these things with a Tambram relative novice to the issue heh.
**
Duplessis: an almost anti-federal "all in" with Quebecer (especially catholic) social conservatism
Lesage:
Lesage: Massive social liberal progressivism to counter the buildup of the Duplessis era and at same time make this the defining Quebecer "silent revolution" identity relative to rest of Canada (again for bargaining power with the larger group).
Trudeau (the father of the current one you see as PM): Making a national liberalism the default (Quebec or any other province)through hell or high water....by any political means necessary. i.e strong federal nationalism to be imbued in Quebec just the same as Ontario and rest of English Canada. The earlier 2 eras were to be pushed to the edges to make way fully for common root identity first.
To this day a number of policies and impacts are associated with each era. The french-speaking population is of course a larger % of Canada than the Parsi one in India for example (as much as the Parsis have established a worthy outsized role in India's greater story, political, institutional, business or otherwise). But the themes of social conservative vs social liberal were and are very much in play w.r.t the minority and majority groups and social bargaining (and some would say social engineering)....w.r.t the legacy and memory that impacted these to begin with (the basic takeaways+interpretations people have from history, culture and extension to their and others present being).
i.e The basic features and ingredients of this "soup" can be seen in many places of the world...what varies are the ingredients and intensities and the stage of journey along the cooking and serving of the soup.
Why the "right-wing" of any society naturally establishes itself with social conservatism (and whichever is the raw majority and its allies) is also a near universal phenomenon (increasingly) in pluralist political setups. As is why the "left-wing" does so with social liberalism.
How these exist in various societies are relative and to be put in context with important degrees of detail....but the feature is quite consistent in the broader perspective I have studied (China is another one I have delved into from experience and study, but it takes the form mostly of factions in the CCP given totalitarian political setup there, i.e the pluralism is forced to an undercurrent than any regular overt political process).
The Parsis are a unique group in all of this. I am thankful I share the world with them and have partook immensely from their contributions. I wouldnt be where I am without Tata (through my dad), thats for darn sure.
Please add me to your tags for quality threads/posts.... I very much enjoyed reading the article at start.
I can vouch for this.
HK Parsis, one was my 4th grade teacher whom I remember very fondly. She was also the adjacent class teacher in 6th grade. Her hubby was a very friendly chap when he would drop by (both their kids attended same school, though different grades to mine).
One assembly, there was a "languages of the world" where each teacher would give a sample of any non-english language they knew, and she picked her mother tongue Gujarati heh (and I found it odd since she always said she was from Bombay, and my knowledge was limited on that stuff back then).
Everything all makes perfect sense in hindsight now with much more knowledge of Parsis I have now.
Definitely old money (my English friend, who's own dad was quite wealthy living in same neighbourhood as her I suppose... described her house as a "mansion" and she had a great car among the teachers etc etc).
Actually it was my dad who first brought this up (why didnt you tell me your teacher is a parsi?) after a parent-teacher meeting....and I responded with whats a parsi?
Then my dad gave me a summary of the Parsis and over time the longer story and just how much he admired them.
Hard to find a "parsi-phile" greater than my dad....most if not all formative background repertoire regd Manekshaw, Bhaba and above all Tata (who had most direct impact on my dad's life*) and many more....I got from him.
*2 concrete ways: tata scholarship and at IISc too.
He can give hours and hours hagiography on Jamsetji alone and always with some new anecdotes regarding his experience+gratitude with Tata+IISc pertinent to this stuff.
As for Parsi road names in HK, I am most cognisant of Mody Road...really nice waterfront part of kowloon and also our favourite indian restaurant was there at the time. I can actually smell that harbourfront as I type this....core root memory stuff.
Kowloon cricket club came up for convo with @Fatman17 recently too elsewhere, HN Mody was instrumental in founding of that as well alongside the HK uni and a number of other institutions.
Regarding the original article you posted and the larger theme, its quite simple really.
The social conservatism (as it exists) of the Indian Hindu population intersects very well with the social conservatism Parsi one (as it exists) for a number of reasons and these details are explored (as perceived/realised by these social conservatisms) pretty well by the author. The small population of the Parsis is also a major contributing factor in this too (just like it would be if roles/histories were hypothetically reversed some how).
Where social conservatism of any community has lesser intersection with another, there will be friction points and worse....any population has the same % of ready agents to harness the zero sum fight for primacy/supremacy at cost of another....that will make use of these potentials (and then move to the next set of identities/memories in another later age for the same purpose). It becomes the work of humanistic enlightenment to develop principles to put significant resistance to this potential....by establishing self-evident truths agreed upon by all (things that preserve and sustain all human life, the role of the golden/silver rule on setting up principles past this and so on).
i.e How society addresses, puts into practice and resolves this is a longer complicated topic to get into. Things like why I propose secular nationalism + classic liberalism (at least what I call them, definitions do vary) in most if not all cases for the current societies of the world to put things in optimal balance to help as many people "get out of this mess" (a mess I see from the unenligthened buildup given the immensity of the void it will always comes from, what we dont know in the time we have down here is always going to be infinite....and so our fear to harness from that is always going to have infinite potential)
I could write up similar length article for example just from firsthand experience and history I know regarding English-speaking and French-speaking Canada (which also used to take a religious angle as well when this was more dominant part of social conservatism here) to the degrees that arose here as they did and still do. The archetype of what the existence of identities inherited from history, preserved and present in the current time...what are the good and bad of all of this, how do they get harnessed and deployed. What is created, what is squandered, what is destroyed from all of it.
How politics adapted/steered this in chicken and the egg way is also particular to this place (there were 3 distinct approaches/eras in Quebec w.r.t larger Canada** post ww2), but follow some general larger themes to what resolves and reconciles with time (worldwide)...and what doesn't and/or flares up again. These flare ups can be quite potent (mostly just in discourse thankfully) even here where things are assumed to have settled. It takes many years of friendship to sometimes get say a Quebecer to open up about these things with a Tambram relative novice to the issue heh.
**
Duplessis: an almost anti-federal "all in" with Quebecer (especially catholic) social conservatism
Lesage:
Lesage: Massive social liberal progressivism to counter the buildup of the Duplessis era and at same time make this the defining Quebecer "silent revolution" identity relative to rest of Canada (again for bargaining power with the larger group).
Trudeau (the father of the current one you see as PM): Making a national liberalism the default (Quebec or any other province)through hell or high water....by any political means necessary. i.e strong federal nationalism to be imbued in Quebec just the same as Ontario and rest of English Canada. The earlier 2 eras were to be pushed to the edges to make way fully for common root identity first.
To this day a number of policies and impacts are associated with each era. The french-speaking population is of course a larger % of Canada than the Parsi one in India for example (as much as the Parsis have established a worthy outsized role in India's greater story, political, institutional, business or otherwise). But the themes of social conservative vs social liberal were and are very much in play w.r.t the minority and majority groups and social bargaining (and some would say social engineering)....w.r.t the legacy and memory that impacted these to begin with (the basic takeaways+interpretations people have from history, culture and extension to their and others present being).
i.e The basic features and ingredients of this "soup" can be seen in many places of the world...what varies are the ingredients and intensities and the stage of journey along the cooking and serving of the soup.
Why the "right-wing" of any society naturally establishes itself with social conservatism (and whichever is the raw majority and its allies) is also a near universal phenomenon (increasingly) in pluralist political setups. As is why the "left-wing" does so with social liberalism.
How these exist in various societies are relative and to be put in context with important degrees of detail....but the feature is quite consistent in the broader perspective I have studied (China is another one I have delved into from experience and study, but it takes the form mostly of factions in the CCP given totalitarian political setup there, i.e the pluralism is forced to an undercurrent than any regular overt political process).
The Parsis are a unique group in all of this. I am thankful I share the world with them and have partook immensely from their contributions. I wouldnt be where I am without Tata (through my dad), thats for darn sure.
Fatman17
Moderator
As a small minority community, the Parsis have given the subcontinent a disproportionate number of household figures. Names like Cowasjee, Marker, Malbari, and Wadia are etched into the history of this region. Yet in Pakistan, perhaps no name holds as much weight or prominence as Avari.
Bayram Avari is a famous hotelier running the 5-star Avari Towers in Karachi and Lahore. He is also into pesticides and bottling with a brewery making both alcoholic and non-alcoholic brands.
Jamshed Marker was a diplomat but he made his mark in cricket as a ball by ball commentator and paired with the also famous Omar Qureshi. If one wanted to hear proper English it was them. Brilliant they were.
Ardeshir Cowasjee was a hard hitting columnist for DAWN newspaper. He was no holds barred in his style of writing and later on TV he would take down all politicians bureaucrats and military officers. His famous line was " sala jhoot bolta hai". The viewers loved him.
Sadly alas the Parsis have left Pakistan as they did in the 70s as Z.Bhutto nationalised their businesses. Worst political mistake as Bhutto tried to implement his Islamic Socialism. His party had many leftist leaders and they forced him to make such decisions. Pakistan has never recovered economic wise.
The Mama Parsi School still exists but without its many Parsi students and teachers.
On another note someone mentioned the HK cricket club. Along with the Singapore cricket club are my two favourite places and everytime l visit HK and Singapore (Sadly not enough these days) l make sure l spend a lazy afternoon at these two watering holes and watch some cricket by the locals.
Sharma Ji
Elite Member
yo @vsdoc
ek baat batao, Parsis ka Ismaili/Bohra musalmans se kya scene/relation hai, if any ?
I kinda-sorta know this quite famous guy, absolutely hates, loathes, balks at the very mention of the sangh lol.
In my limited, though super friendly and bhai bhai type drunken shenanigans I found out ki unka political compass kaha ko point kar ra hai.
Based just on his surname, I jumped to the conclusion ki banda Parsi hoga obviously, but it turns out bohra ya Ismaili hai.. who also also trace their lineage back to mama Persia or something ?
Oh course, once it was clear as crystal to me, ki kya scene hai.. I quickly doused whatever glowing embers I saw and steered the conversation away from political discourse and into merrier waters.
batao kuch.. baaki e-mail pe bhi baat kr sakte hain but this is just me being curious about your lot.
ek baat batao, Parsis ka Ismaili/Bohra musalmans se kya scene/relation hai, if any ?
I kinda-sorta know this quite famous guy, absolutely hates, loathes, balks at the very mention of the sangh lol.
In my limited, though super friendly and bhai bhai type drunken shenanigans I found out ki unka political compass kaha ko point kar ra hai.
Based just on his surname, I jumped to the conclusion ki banda Parsi hoga obviously, but it turns out bohra ya Ismaili hai.. who also also trace their lineage back to mama Persia or something ?
Oh course, once it was clear as crystal to me, ki kya scene hai.. I quickly doused whatever glowing embers I saw and steered the conversation away from political discourse and into merrier waters.
batao kuch.. baaki e-mail pe bhi baat kr sakte hain but this is just me being curious about your lot.
vsdoc
Elite Member
- Thread starter
- #268
I have a batchmate from the community.
Upper crust. Snooty. Claim they are not of Indic bloodlines. Not Persia. Yemen I think.
Will not marry among other Muslims strictly. Own mosques. Own Eid etc. Major fanclub of Modi.
Your friend (and mine) are community outliers.
Cheers, Doc
Vox Non Dei
SpeedLimited
Pffffft! How long do you think Parsis have been living with Hindus, that too in Maharashtra and Gujarat? The very core of Hindutva movement?
Vox Non Dei
SpeedLimited
BINGO!
The good old in and out. All of the south/southeast/east asians understand it very well and practice it widely. Tatamae and Honne, the facade and the machine.
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