PTI News, Updates and Discussion

[Respect4Respect]

You have my statement here to screenshot and throw at me whenever you want.

The military establishment (including the political, religious clergy AND monetary elite allies - either fully or by looking the other way) starting with Afghan 80: war and supercharged by Hamid Gul types - created and enabled extremism and specifically militant extremism for both “at the time” and “future potential” uses for their interpretation and ideas of “for Pakistan’s” benefit.

These ideals were rarely thought from a “what if” concept to mostly a myopic idealism that assumed that once the objectives of getting “depth”(or as Zia called it Koh e Kaaf) were achieved these elements could be tamed or would be passive.

Now, how does IK come into this?
He was “right” in that when you attack the Taliban or rather conduct operations on the very system you enabled - you aren’t just removing cancer but you will hit all the organs along with it and the body will fight back. What he did not however outline is that IT IS A CANCER - the establishment KNOWS IT SCREWED UP but it also has its own entanglement among this cancer it could not remove lest there is a need for these elements as well.

Think of it as a homeless heroin addict.
The establishment made the guy homeless and supplies him heroin but is not pissed off because he is stinking up their neighborhood so they are attacking him - but then the rest of the neighborhood also has herion supply and is rattled when addicts are picked up.
IK is saying, let the addicts be and if you provide them jobs they will reform one day while completely ignoring the problem that addiction of this drug which was made from the verse “whom we had led astray” in the Quran cannot be cured.

Neither are right - and IKs “idiocies” are much less compared to the termite mentality nonsense these 200 or so max people who came from mostly in the army in the past 75 years but also clergy(and their feudal partners) - but we need to weigh them in the now and right now regardless of the massive chargesheet against the establishment - right now in this moment IK’s approach is wrong.
That doesn’t mean five star is right - far from it and he barely has a hold on what is doing but from a pure “where is the bus going” perspective - for the next 100 yards the current setups direction keeps you on a paved road(for now) while IK and PTIs approach will send you off the cliff.
Then, yes - their(current setup) direction will likely plunge the bus into a ravine and blow it up - so it is better to convince this bus driver who loves sycophants that he is in command while you figure out how to take the bus from him.

Then, IK needs to understand his “Afghan hamaray bhai” idea is nonsense. He has been fed that because of his history in Oxford running off outdated ideas of Pashtun nationalism (which ironically are coming back) that cannot be allowed to fester if Pakistan is to continue in its current form.

If that is not the goal - please continue as PTI is going and lets end and break up this country once and for all - the FM or his buddies will do it anyway or economics will.

I keep telling everyone who talks of Jinnah’s Pakistan - Jinnah is gone , Ayub destroyed his vision permanently.

Riyasat e Medina is a fools dream - neither are the people of Pakistan the people of Medina nor are their ways or culture or values similar to them nor is ANY leader even qualified or character wise worth the dirt under Qaswa’s hooves let alone the Prophet’s character.

Pakistan needs a Pakistan today solution - PTI with its educated middle class backing was the best hope but IK whether by his own ego and Mrs control or through Faiz’s own self serving plans burnt it to the ground.

Good post, most of us agree that Pakistan’s current challenges didn’t emerge overnight. They’re the result of decades of missteps, flawed policies, and decisions made by those in power across the board. Politicians, institutions, and leadership at every level have played a role in shaping where we are today.

That’s why I never object when someone points out the collective responsibility. It’s the truth, and acknowledging it is the first step toward meaningful change.

What I do speak up about is when people single out IK as the sole reason for terrorism or instability in Pakistan. Whether you support him or not, it’s important to recognize that no one individual created these problems alone. He’s not above criticism, but he’s not the root of all evil either.

 

[Oscar]

Why dont you cough up the answer ? what Taliban got to with the jihad of 80s?

@Respect4Respect I can highlight how naked he is again.

But since you do support the same party and leader -
Just to confirm

Do you believe that Taliban movements had NOTHING to do with Afghan Jihad? That they would have appeared regardless of soviet invasion or otherwise?

 

[Mighty_Dragon_Strike]

What was the percentage of this middle class and more so their involvement in politics?
Could you provide metrics to your claim of “apathy” for the educated middle class. We’re not talking about the wealthy but educated people living month to month or best year to year.

sir, there can be no percentages..

all there can be is volatility, in a such a society

and if there is a volatility (breakage of trust and confidence), even if you make percentage based metrics, they will yield volatility!

volatility breeds volatility and itself becomes robust!


for instance, strong GDP even with lower per capital $ income!

 

[Oscar]

Good post, most of us agree that Pakistan’s current challenges didn’t emerge overnight. They’re the result of decades of missteps, flawed policies, and decisions made by those in power across the board. Politicians, institutions, and leadership at every level have played a role in shaping where we are today.

That’s why I never object when someone points out the collective responsibility. It’s the truth, and acknowledging it is the first step toward meaningful change.

What I do speak up about is when people single out IK as the sole reason for terrorism or instability in Pakistan. Whether you support him or not, it’s important to recognize that no one individual created these problems alone. He’s not above criticism, but he’s not the root of all evil either.

He is the hardly the root of evil - but in THIS current context he is the other side of the coin along with this current administration that is laying the groundwork for more chasms in Pakistan’s society and further economic ruin.
I don’t see him as the answer nor as anything other than a populist figurehead.

I did support PTI - I sat across IK thrice in my life in 2006, 2014 and 2018 and unabashedly say I felt some hope even if I found him rather brash then because as I sat there so were many other solid competent people that unlike the folks in PML(N), PPP and MQM whom I have also sat across by chance I never felt uncomfortable or disgusted - but IK was the cause of his rise and the cause of his fall - he betrayed the hopes of many plainly because he fell into the same trap as all politicians and more importantly - he lost the BEST chance Pakistan had for reform just because he could not say no to his wife and his “benefactors” and compromised on key principles.

 

[Oscar]

sir, there can be no percentages..

all there can be is volatility, in a such a society

and if there is a volatility (breakage of trust and confidence), even if you make percentage based metrics, they will yield volatility!

volatility breeds volatility and itself becomes robust!


for instance, strong GDP even with lower per capital $ income!

That’s is tangential to the question of “Is the educated middle class always apathetic when things are good for them” - Im not saying one way or the other - just asking the question.
@VCheng @Fatman17
Thoughts on your generation?
I can put in input for minr

 

[Forsvaret]

…what would IK do with Afridi or other pro-Afghan members of his party who object to it.

The issue here is rather that it’s IK himself who opposes military establishment conducting an operation there right now. So it’s more of a IK "problem" rather than any pro-Afghan Afridi’s.

 

[Taimoor]

The military establishment (including the political, religious clergy AND monetary elite allies - either fully or by looking the other way) starting with Afghan 80: war and supercharged by Hamid Gul types - created and enabled extremism and specifically militant extremism for both “at the time” and “future potential” uses for their interpretation and ideas of “for Pakistan’s” benefit.

These ideals were rarely thought from a “what if” concept to mostly a myopic idealism that assumed that once the objectives of getting “depth”(or as Zia called it Koh e Kaaf) were achieved these elements could be tamed or would be passive.

None sense, wallahi I have heard and seen the father of present day "enlightened moderate" army hierarchy, the one and only, Musharraf on CNN describing Taliban as "ground reality". That is of course before 9/11. To blame Hamid Gul and not the successive chiefs who basically screwed up things later is intellectual dishonesty.

Now, how does IK come into this?
He was “right” in that when you attack the Taliban or rather conduct operations on the very system you enabled - you aren’t just removing cancer but you will hit all the organs along with it and the body will fight back. What he did not however outline is that IT IS A CANCER - the establishment KNOWS IT SCREWED UP but it also has its own entanglement among this cancer it could not remove lest there is a need for these elements as well.

IK stance, long before he because a political juggernaut, was against the drone strikes, which were basically killing a lots of innocents. How did TTP came into being? Just for memory refresh:

Tribal fury as Pakistan military kills 80 in religious school

· Attacked madrasa said to be terrorist training camp· Dead were children and seminarians, say villagers

www.theguardian.com

And your fanboys were actually owning this bullcrap! IK was trying to clean diahreaa stains these generals were leaving everywhere, trying to wipe their arses.

 

[Oscar]

The issue here is rather that it’s IK himself who opposes military establishment conducting an operation there right now. So it’s more of a IK "problem" rather than any pro-Afghan Afridi’s.

Then you have an issue - because while a continuous military operation will only create more issues - you need to stamp out certain problems.

As I outlined earlier, the issue is how to treat homelessness and associated crime. It cannot be a “lock them all up” approach nor can it be a “let them be and they’ll fix themselves”.

IK position as a politician leaves little room for complex explanations or approaches - so he is resorting to scorched earth to fight and the problem is the earth can no longer bear any more of such violent approaches.

We can all agree the current stars(despite many more competent stars and other brassy things advising them otherwise) on top have lost the plot when it comes to both a political solution with PTI and also tackling the Pashtun nationalism narrative along with it.
However, much like Mujib(who himself became a reluctant carrier of the independence message) I fear IK is looking to end up as Pathan-Bandhu or will enable CM Afridi who isn’t as balanced or more ethnically “open” to take that title.

 

[Forsvaret]

What Afghan Jihad of 80s got to do with Taliban movement?

Taliban movement is an offshoot of global Afghan Jihad movement left behind by US and Saudi Arabia after the fall of Soviet Union.

 

[Taimoor]

@Respect4Respect I can highlight how naked he is again.

But since you do support the same party and leader -
Just to confirm

Do you believe that Taliban movements had NOTHING to do with Afghan Jihad? That they would have appeared regardless of soviet invasion or otherwise?

Spare me the BS and learn the actual history.

Taliban have NOTHING to do with the Afghan jihad against the soviets. They were either kids or were not even born back then. Those were basically boys of madrassas who were huddled up by then Pakistani establishment and PPP government to put some sense of order in the civil conflict riddled Afghanistan post soviet withdrawal, where the likes of Ahemd Shah masood, hykmatyar and rabbians of this world were at each other throats. Hell, my childhood friend died while fighting with these lot! You telling me the history of Taliban? Sit down...

 

[Oscar]

Taliban movement is an offshoot of global Afghan Jihad movement left behind by US and Saudi Arabia after the fall of Soviet Union.

Im waiting for his flip on that.
However, if to be more present - it was led by a veteran of the Afghan war with key Afghan war mujahideen veterans as leaders with foot soldiers from the “Talibs” of Madressas along FATA and Afghanistan.
The response was to the chaos and warlord situation (of which ISI supporting Haqqani and other groups initially not in contact or even aware of Mullah Omar).

The Afghan war veterans all having training from ISI enabled with Saudi and CIA money.
So the Taliban simply could not have happened contrary to the idiotic claim by this member you quoted without the Afghan Jihad and the resulting ecosystem created within Pakistan to supply the trained fighters and personnel

 

[Oscar]

Spare me the BS and learn the actual history.

Taliban have NOTHING to do with the Afghan jihad against the soviets. They were either kids or were not even born back then. Those were basically boys of madrassas who were huddled up by then Pakistani establishment and PPP government to put some sense of order in the civil conflict riddled Afghanistan post soviet withdrawal, where the likes of Ahemd Shah masood, hykmatyar and rabbians of this world were at each other throats. Hell, my childhood friend died while fighting with these lot! You telling me the history of Taliban? Sit down...

You are a lying hypocrite who is making up personal anecdotes and trying semantics to get out of the original nonsense he dug himself into. Teri auqat nahin mujhe kuch kehne ki - bara aya sit down.

Mullah Omar aasman se tapka tha kya?

This movement the ISI were initially unaware of the sentiment they got in contact. Provide a SINGLE proof other than your made up fat failed 50 something BS here.
Naseerullah Babur latched on to this idea months into their getting involved and then made claims “I created them”.

Sure - ISI fully took the reins in stride - but to say that they appeared completely agnostic to the Afghan Jihad is again your ignorance or rather hypocrisy.

 

[VCheng]

That’s is tangential to the question of “Is the educated middle class always apathetic when things are good for them” - Im not saying one way or the other - just asking the question.
@VCheng @Fatman17
Thoughts on your generation?
I can put in input for minr

Is the educated middle class always apathetic when things are good for them?

That is a great question. Let me start by specifying that my thoughts in this answer are limited in applicability to Pakistan, with the understanding that the middle class is between the 25th and 75th percentiles of income, which means by implication that the basic necessities of life are already covered.

Let me start by explaining what does a perception of things being good for the educated middle class looks like: physical security, financial security, and social security. (I can go into details into each one, but I think you can understand what each of these would entail.)

Given that apathy is a lack of interest about something arising from a lack of oriented goals, the middle class is in that awkward place between knowing that, having had a taste, security is a very desirable state, but not yet secure enough to take it for granted, makes it practically impossible by definition.

For now, I would hope that this brief answer suffices, given that I am withholding further active participation here due to certain rabid individuals and their utter inability to see beyond their own noses, or indeed even another orifice which is anyone else's but their chosen demagogue's, let alone tolerate or discuss views that might be different than their own fixed ideas and thoughts.

 

[Mighty_Dragon_Strike]

That’s is tangential to the question of “Is the educated middle class always apathetic when things are good for them” - Im not saying one way or the other - just asking the question.
@VCheng @Fatman17
Thoughts on your generation?
I can put in input for minr

let me put the thesis in very strong and harsh words:
(majority aka middle class!)

dont judge them by how and how much can they earn, judge them by quality of their decisions!

1. Is the majority of our people such that they would rather stay hungry than lie, cheat, or steal?
2. Isn’t the dualistic behavior in our people actually because of being overly rigid or fundamentalist in matters of religion?
3. Do our people even have enough awareness or conscience to prefer staying hungry over doing something wrong?


answer is no, so result is "false pisitive" aka Imran Khan



Now you’ll say, “What childish things to talk about!”
to me (and to the educated world!), Anyone who doesn’t believe in these basic principles doesn’t even deserve to be called human.


now, question arises what is false positive!

false positive is behavior which negates the presence of collapse and gives rise to chaos!
chaos emerges out of rebalancing of 'loss of stability'!
here, chaos, results in regressed progress!

(it is different from entropy, which is a change in state!)

so, what are practical examples!

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[alphapak]

its a fact that pti apposes anti taliban/anti ttp ops where did the other wars even come from

How many Military operations has the Mafia launched since 2004? how many
Intel based ops since 2004? What have they achieved because every other year
they just want to keep launching operations?

Same thing happening in Baluchistan since 1970s, but if tell a f@ujeet to launch
a Operation on Jammu Kashmir they have a mirghi attack.