PTI News, Updates and Discussion

Do you think PTI has a future without Imran Khan?

  • Yes

    Votes: 22 19.6%
  • No

    Votes: 80 71.4%
  • Only if senior leadership is released

    Votes: 10 8.9%

  • Total voters
    112
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let me put the thesis in very strong and harsh words:
(majority aka middle class!)

dont judge them by how and how much can they earn, judge them by quality of their decisions!

1. Is the majority of our people such that they would rather stay hungry than lie, cheat, or steal?
2. Isn’t the dualistic behavior in our people actually because of being overly rigid or fundamentalist in matters of religion?
3. Do our people even have enough awareness or conscience to prefer staying hungry over doing something wrong?


answer is no, so result is "false pisitive" aka Imran Khan



Now you’ll say, “What childish things to talk about!”
to me (and to the educated world!), Anyone who doesn’t believe in these basic principles doesn’t even deserve to be called human.


now, question arises what is false positive!

false positive is behavior which negates the presence of collapse and gives rises to chaos!
chaos emerges out of rebalancing of 'loss of stability'!
here, chaos, results in regressed progress!

(it is different from entropy, which is a change in state!)

so, what are practice examples!


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Your thesis could be supported if there is a tendency of the system to return to the same state despite changes.

For e.g.
instead of saying going hungry or cheating

Would they still cheat to make twice if there is a system that provides them their needs without cheating or otherwise?
 
None sense, wallahi I have heard and seen the father of present day "enlightened moderate" army hierarchy, the one and only, Musharraf on CNN describing Taliban as "ground reality". That is of course before 9/11. To blame Hamid Gul and not the successive chiefs who basically screwed up things later is intellectual dishonesty.




IK stance, long before he because a political juggernaut, was against the drone strikes, which were basically killing a lots of innocents. How did TTP came into being? Just for memory refresh:


And your fanboys were actually owning this bullcrap! IK was trying to clean diahreaa stains these generals were leaving everywhere, trying to wipe their arses.
Wallahi -
I have seen one person on TV and that is the gospel truth.

Aadha teetar aadha batiair nonsense.

English parhni ati hai? Where did I specifically say “Only hamid gul”?
Does the word “types” mean anything to you?

Now you decide to bring moderation or secularism as the bait instead of long standing policy of supporting militant groups and their breeding grounds. Tell me how extremist was Beg, Kakar or Janjua or karamat?

Typical drawing room “I watched TV so I know” arguments and whataboutism because you have no original defense.

Drone strikes provided propaganda to the TTP - because innocents were being lost which your majazi Khuda opposed correctly.

But that is nowhere the sole reason or the origin story of TTP as alleged by your guardian article - if you even bothered to read it.

It is trying to parrot the early 2000s US alliance narrative of of fighting terrorism except It ignores that there were Madressas in Pakistan, it ignores that for years inter marriages between tribes across borders - it ignores that Taliban would cross back and forth and had relationships in the area with the militant training camps here.
It ignores that when Pakistan sided with US the people from the Taliban, with relationships already had angst and it ignores that elements within Pakistan's intelligence and military apparatus had a sympathetic or strategic relationship with certain militant groups.

And somehow you as “I was there having chai and sooper when Musharraf went on TV and Hamid Mir ran a report right after” uncle have come up with “Drone strikes started TTP” and “IK was against drone strikes” therefore no drone strikes no TTP and no extremism and militancy in Afghanistan if IK was in power.

Typical aadha teetar, aadha batair insecure drawing room chacha who when corneded goes “Aap ko kya pata, aap ko kuch nahin pata - mein tha, meray mamoozad bhai ke saale ke office ke peon jo dus saal pehle Bajaur se aya tha uss ne bataya”
 
Your thesis could be supported if there is a tendency of the system to return to the same state despite changes.

For e.g.
instead of saying going hungry or cheating

Would they still cheat to make twice if there is a system that provides them their needs without cheating or otherwise?
100%
in other words, to be more blunt
illusion can only persist while people believe in no illusion!

philosophical realities often are dark and scary
 
How many Military operations has the Mafia launched since 2004? how many
Intel based ops since 2004? What have they achieved because every other year
they just want to keep launching operations?

Same thing happening in Baluchistan since 1970s, but if tell a f@ujeet to launch
a Operation on Jammu Kashmir they have a mirghi attack.
You can drive to Swat in about 3 hours from Islamabad and see for yourself what the military ops achieved. I also do deeply miss the weekly 20+ civilians killed in a suicide bombing headlines from late 2000's uptil mid 2010's.
 
…he lost the BEST chance Pakistan had for reform just because he could not say no to his wife and his “benefactors” and compromised on key principles.
This claim of yours actually makes sense because almost all court cases which landed him in prison are somehow connected to his current wife; Bushra BiBi. Imran himself might be completely free of any financial corruption, but he was always surrounded by the most corrupt lot in Pakistani politics such as Jahangir Tareen, Aleem Khan, Azam Swati to name a few. 🙄
 
You are a lying hypocrite who is making up personal anecdotes and trying semantics to get out of the original nonsense he dug himself into. Teri auqat nahin mujhe kuch kehne ki - bara aya sit down.

Mullah Omar aasman se tapka tha kya?

This movement the ISI were initially unaware of the sentiment they got in contact. Provide a SINGLE proof other than your made up fat failed 50 something BS here.
Naseerullah Babur latched on to this idea months into their getting involved and then made claims “I created them”.

Sure - ISI fully took the reins in stride - but to say that they appeared completely agnostic to the Afghan Jihad is again your ignorance or rather hypocrisy.

I am educating people the real history while slapping you silly. You are just a vessel. Empt vessel. Just making noises and the show.

Tu cheez kia hai? Tuhj jaisay bahoot phany khanon ko seediha kia hai main nay. You are a softy.

Mullah Umar tera thoko hai kia? Pay attention to what I write. Taliban movement were made of young men and boys from madrassas in Afghanistan and Pakistan who never saw Soviets, let alone fought them. Hell, huge numbers of them came from madrassas in Pakistan. Ever heard of madrassa haqqaniya?

You talk a lot, pipe it down.
 
Wallahi -
I have seen one person on TV and that is the gospel truth.

Aadha teetar aadha batiair nonsense.

English parhni ati hai? Where did I specifically say “Only hamid gul”?
Does the word “types” mean anything to you?

Now you decide to bring moderation or secularism as the bait instead of long standing policy of supporting militant groups and their breeding grounds. Tell me how extremist was Beg, Kakar or Janjua or karamat?

Typical drawing room “I watched TV so I know” arguments and whataboutism because you have no original defense.

Drone strikes provided propaganda to the TTP - because innocents were being lost which your majazi Khuda opposed correctly.

But that is nowhere the sole reason or the origin story of TTP as alleged by your guardian article - if you even bothered to read it.

It is trying to parrot the early 2000s US alliance narrative of of fighting terrorism except It ignores that there were Madressas in Pakistan, it ignores that for years inter marriages between tribes across borders - it ignores that Taliban would cross back and forth and had relationships in the area with the militant training camps here.
It ignores that when Pakistan sided with US the people from the Taliban, with relationships already had angst and it ignores that elements within Pakistan's intelligence and military apparatus had a sympathetic or strategic relationship with certain militant groups.

And somehow you as “I was there having chai and sooper when Musharraf went on TV and Hamid Mir ran a report right after” uncle have come up with “Drone strikes started TTP” and “IK was against drone strikes” therefore no drone strikes no TTP and no extremism and militancy in Afghanistan if IK was in power.

Typical aadha teetar, aadha batair insecure drawing room chacha who when corneded goes “Aap ko kya pata, aap ko kuch nahin pata - mein tha, meray mamoozad bhai ke saale ke office ke peon jo dus saal pehle Bajaur se aya tha uss ne bataya”

Haan ghoncho. When a self imposed secular dictator on TV is batting for Taliban on a forigen channel, you better pay heed. Maybe your consider yourself queen of England, maybe they should consult you before giving stamp of approval. Retard.

Haan bacha, Engless speaking, engless writing. Abbey khachar, you are the one giving this justification of propping up of Taliban by the "likes" of Hameed Gul with religious tendencies and dogmas, while they were clearly supported and sustained by not so religious army establishment who came after Gul. And while you at, do some math. Gul was made to leave ISI in 89. Taliban came into existence in mid 90s. Kallu, durrani, nasir (only exception) and qazi, how many of these were "religious zealots"? Taliban were actually organised during the time of qazi. So what the actual F you are talking about? Giving religious paint job is a easy get out of jail card the likes of you play.

And then went about from beg to karamat.. I mean WTF! Read above . Teri deemagh main kia bhuss bhara Howa hai? Congratulation you just scored a self goal.

Drones strike MADE the TTP, you dont need propaganda when innocents and childern in madrassas were being hunted by CIA drones and while our military was busy owning those strikes, too embarrassed to acknowledge that those strikes by a foreign entity were happening inside Pakistan by their blessings. You fawjeets will never tell the truth. You lot first lite the fire then pour oil on it, and then act as if nothing happened, and everybody should agree and obey with your BS. When did TTP came into being? Ever paid attention, the Time line, the event which happened before. And why there is a years gap between American invasion of Afghanistan and emergence of TTP?.... simple answer, our sajeelay jawans fked it up. If pulling the rug, from very well hard fought strategic depth to doing 180 degree UTurn becuase abbu jee called from Washington, this is the bottom line. And then worse, trying to impress abbu jee, you went full retard mode trying to morphe Pakistan into bastion of enlighten moderation from "Islam ka qilla", and then you went further down into insanity by doing military operations within your own borders to appease those who were accusing you of harbouring Quetta Shura. And while all this shithosery was going on, RAW and NDS put the icing on the cake.

So when you trying to be cute, putting topi on a politician like IK, who is trying to make sense of all this very bad situation created by your overlords, the fat bellies in GHQ, I know you don't have it, but try to feel bit of a shame. Pathetic.
 
The bitter truth which Imran's supporters are unwilling to accept is that Imran never groomed a leadership team despite his so-called '27 years of struggle' blah blah. Even in this pro Imran forum, there is a poll which says something like 'PTI has no future without Imran Khan'; that tells you something, right?!!

Imran, Nawaz Sharif and Altaf Hussein suffer from huge personality disorders, making them unfit to lead a complex, vulnerable nation like Pakistan. The Establishment has wisely sidelined Nawaz Sharif and his once mighty ego is satisfied to be sidelined. Altaf Hussein has no future in Pakistan or elsewhere. Imran is splashing around using the resources of the KP province to come out ahead but ain't happening, not going to happen. I wish he is sent to some Saroor Palace in Saudi Arabia and put a gag on his politics for at least 10 years.

He should have though, SMQ, Fawad Ch, Ali Muhammad, Qaiser, President Alvi are some good leaders. This is something that's annoying, IK is in jail and he should really be giving authority to the core committe of PTI, to negotiate with all parties, reach a settlement regarding the current situation, then wait a few years and come back to power. That's how politics is played but instead decisions are still made by IK who in reality shouldn't have a clue on what is EXACTLY happening on the outside. We all talk about jamuriyat but noone follows it.
 
I am not forgetting that at all. I don't know how old you are but I have seen Pakistani Establishment and political leaders from Zulfi Bhutto's rule and onwards.

My point is: Benazir Bhutto was hugely humiliated in the 1990 elections where her majority from the 1988 elections was reduced to a mere 15-17 votes and almost all of them were from Sindh; her popular vote even in the 1990 elections, were at par with Nawaz Sharif's votes. She could have boycotted the National Assembly and be constantly on the streets protesting--she did have a large support base across Pakistan then. But she realized it would be futile and even self-destructive and bid her time and played her role inside the Parliament. The odds were far too heavily stacked against her vs what Imran was facing in 2022. Imran should have accepting the NCM vote, sat as the Opposition Leader and used his considerable leverage to work 'within the system'. But he is too stupid, too egotistical for that and his subsequent actions have only confirmed he is unfit to rule Pakistan.

Imran Khan and PTI Errors, Inconsistencies, and Reversals:
Imran Khan and the PTI leadership, during the long marches, gatherings, and sit-ins, consistently criticized and even engaged in character assassination of the opposition political leadership. Over time, this practice became a recurring pattern. Initially, they praised the judiciary and military establishment, but this stance shifted, and they began to target these institutions with similar criticism, revealing inconsistencies and reversals in their rhetoric, during the long march and sit-ins PTI praised the ISI and generals, mentioned “the boots are coming”, a claim that army will topple Nawaz Sharif, but after his own removal he turned anti army and ISI, his senior party leader Javid Hashmi advised Imran Khan to not use establishment help but Imran Khan ignored the advice which lead him to a trap, he blamed Usa for conspiracy to remove him, which later on he backed off, he blamed General Bajwa for his removal, and called establishment Mir Jaffer and Mir Sadiq (traitors) but the same people were hero's when they backed him and his party, after general Bajwa retired PTI went after the new general Asim Munir.

When a TLP leader issued a fatwa against General Bajwa, labeling him a traitor, PTI supporters rallied behind Bajwa and strongly condemned the TLP leader, with some even calling for extreme measures against him. At that time, PTI backed the harsh treatment of TLP protesters. However, when PTI itself faced similar situations with protests and government crackdowns, they complained about the same treatment. Imran Khan previously labeled figures like Nawaz Sharif and Altaf Hussain as traitors for speaking out against the military leadership. However, in a turn of events, he later adopted a similar approach, criticizing the generals through his speeches and with the help of his online followers.

PTI announced a jail-filling movement, but when its leaders and followers were imprisoned, Imran Khan labeled it state oppression and called for their release. Many party members advised him against allowing electables into PTI, but he ignored their warnings. Initially, when these electables joined PTI, it was seen as a victory; however, when they later left the party, they were labeled as turncoats. In Azad Jammu and Kashmir (AJK), numerous politicians and supporters from PPP and PML-N joined PTI, including senior leaders from other parties. Despite bringing in these familiar faces with the same old mentality, they ultimately betrayed Imran Khan, reflecting the challenges of relying on established political figures.

During the first vote of confidence, Imran Khan and PTI confidently claimed they held the majority in parliament, and Imran Khan successfully secured the vote. However, during the second motion, which was a no-confidence motion (NCM), PTI again insisted they had the majority, though they did not. Sheikh Rasheed, an ally of Imran Khan, advised dissolving the assemblies and calling for new elections, as he knew PTI had lost its majority. However, PTI refused this advice. The establishment also got involved, informing Imran Khan that he could either proceed with the NCM or dissolve the assemblies and opt for elections, as they too were aware he would be removed if the motion proceeded in the National Assembly. Despite this, Imran Khan chose not to listen to Sheikh Rasheed or the establishment. When the NCM was tabled, and the Speaker of the Assembly attempted to block the process, Imran Khan then tried to dissolve the assemblies and call for elections, which was against the law. The judiciary intervened, insisting that the NCM must proceed. Imran Khan made a critical mistake by not dissolving the assemblies before the NCM was tabled. Later, Imran Khan also made the decision to resign from the provincial assemblies, despite PTI leader Pervez Elahi advising against it. This decision led to PTI losing all political power and facing severe consequences, including heavy actions from the police, agencies, and the Shehbaz Sharif government.

At the time, General Bajwa attempted to contact Imran Khan, but Khan refused to engage with the military leadership. However, in 2024, PTI is now expressing a willingness to speak with the military, while simultaneously complaining that the military is not responsive. This reflects a pattern where PTI criticized the military's involvement in politics when it suited them, yet complained when the military did not intervene. Imran Khan was also repeatedly advised to negotiate with the opposition during his tenure, which he refused. Ironically, he is now engaging with figures like JUI-F chief Fazlur Rehman and Pakhtunkhwa Milli Awami Party leader Mahmood Khan Achakzai, whom he previously labeled as traitors but now views as allies. Furthermore, before coming to power, Imran Khan advocated for military intervention to remove corrupt leadership, yet now blames the military for political interference, showcasing an inconsistency in his stance.

After Imran Khan's removal, PTI's social media leadership launched an aggressive campaign against the army and ISI, labeling them as traitors and American agents. They called for junior generals to overthrow the senior leadership and orchestrated a well-planned propaganda effort, predicting the collapse of the Pakistan Army's chain of command. In response, DG ISI Nadeem Anjum remarked that while the people of Pakistan have every right to criticize the military, spreading false propaganda, calling them traitors and Mir Jafers, and attempting to turn the public against the institution is unacceptable.

Imran Khan made several promises regarding electoral reforms, improving the education system, updating state institutions, establishing a model police force, and implementing health reforms. However, during PTI's time in power, these promises were not fully realized for various reasons, including administrative challenges, political opposition, and shifting priorities. As a result, many of these reforms remained unfulfilled.

Throughout Pakistan's history, its agencies and establishment have closely monitored foreign relations. However, during Imran Khan's tenure, several key allies, such as the USA, Saudi Arabia, and the UAE, were reportedly displeased with his approach. His efforts to form an alliance of non-Arab nations strained relations with Saudi Arabia, which allegedly responded by threatening to demand early loan repayments and repatriate millions of Pakistani workers. Additionally, the USA was reportedly unhappy with Pakistan's neutral stance on the Ukraine-Russia conflict, especially as the US adopted an aggressive policy in support of Ukraine, General Bajwa had to intervene and publicly announce Pakistan's opposition to Russia's invasion of Ukraine, which was in direct contrast to the government's policy of neutrality. This move highlighted a clear divergence between the military's stance and the PTI government's foreign policy, reflecting the growing tensions between the two on handling international relations.

Imran Khan's efforts to strengthen ties with the Taliban, Iran, and Russia heightened tensions with the USA, which viewed these moves unfavorably. This, along with his neutral stance on the Ukraine-Russia conflict, contributed to a breakdown in relations with key allies like the USA, Saudi Arabia, and the UAE, who have historically played influential roles in Pakistan’s affairs. These actions also caused friction with the Pakistan Army, which traditionally maintains a cautious and balanced approach to foreign policy, further straining civil-military relations during Khan's tenure.
 
He should have though, SMQ, Fawad Ch, Ali Muhammad, Qaiser, President Alvi are some good leaders. This is something that's annoying, IK is in jail and he should really be giving authority to the core committe of PTI, to negotiate with all parties, reach a settlement regarding the current situation, then wait a few years and come back to power. That's how politics is played but instead decisions are still made by IK who in reality shouldn't have a clue on what is EXACTLY happening on the outside. We all talk about jamuriyat but noone follows it.

And what about Buzdar?

Do you think if a PM is serious about progress he would appoint someone like him to the richest and most productive province, the engine room of Pakistan?
 
The issue here is rather that it’s IK himself who opposes military establishment conducting an operation there right now. So it’s more of a IK "problem" rather than any pro-Afghan Afridi’s. 🙄

Imran Khan always opposed military operations, opposed Usa led Afghanistan war, opposed drone attacks, opposed giving logsitic support to Usa in Afghanistan. Not sure about right now but the first major military operation started by Gen Raheel Sharif were successful, it reduced terorrism. PTI Pmln JUI JI opposed them whilst PPP, Pmlq, Mqm, MWM, SIC, sunni shia ulema wanted the operations.
 
Taliban movement is an offshoot of global Afghan Jihad movement left behind by US and Saudi Arabia after the fall of Soviet Union.

Afghanistan jihad bought in billions of petrodollar fundings, 10,000s of maddrassas in Pakistan, 1000s of masjids and Taliban was created by these people. The original Afghanistan soviet mujahdeens were majority not the Taliban types but a were Sufi groups, some were shia, but the most powerful were the extremists because they aligned with Saudia wahabi sect. Today for some odd reason the Taliban has banned wahabism, this has angered Saudia and someone is pumping billions to ISIS (cough). It seems Taliban and Saudia had a divorce.
 
100%
in other words, to be more blunt
illusion can only persist while people believe in no illusion!

philosophical realities often are dark and scary
Well we do have both a control of sorts and experiments to check.

For e.g first gen expats as an example what percentage of them still continue to engage in cheating or loopholes to thrive vs which of them never need to because the systems outside Pakistan enable success regardless?

Either way, it too much of a digress from the original topic
This claim of yours actually makes sense because almost all court cases which landed him in prison are somehow connected to his current wife; Bushra BiBi. Imran himself might be completely free of any financial corruption, but he was always surrounded by the most corrupt lot in Pakistani politics such as Jahangir Tareen, Aleem Khan, Azam Swati to name a few. 🙄
I used to live in a house owned by Azam Swati prior to him even being close to PTI - not the best of experiences then either.

Regardless, IK has had a search for his own identity which is part of any human’s growth and somewhere post Reham(another poorly thought out choice) he was introduced incorrectly to this lady. This is his achilles heel(keeping in mind it’s not just him but many Pakistani leaders or even the Shah of Iran).

The assumption here is that calling out IK’s faults automatically paints other options when at the end of the day he wasn’t a “best among the crop” but rather the least financially corrupt among the crop especially with social proof regarding SKMH. However, that didn’t mean he isn’t severely flawed otherwise, egoistic and prone to poor decisions.

Does it automatically give credibility to SS,NS or Zardari or Hafiz ji?
No - because what he did do as with SKMH was build a semi democratic framework within PTI that would (unless IK overruled it) allow new and semi-competent (compared to utterly incompetent) individuals to rise up and most importantly encourage those with honesty (even if gauged relatively with Pakistanis) to participate in politics and see hope for change.

He basically lost that chance for reasons outlined AND - to give “credit” - being checkmated by much more seasoned players in PML and other incumbent rot coupled with their counterparts (who have limited time to make their personal benefits and impact unlike dynasties) in the military.
Cipher or no cipher - instead of quietly playing his first innings to establish himself, he didn’t listen to his best players - kept trying to swing blindly to please his sweethearts, put her sweetheart friends on the top of the order even when they had barely played beyond gulli cricket - and then wouldn’t listen to the umpire/empire giving hints.

His wicket fell from a tampered swinger bowled with a foot well beyond the line and the umpire/empire cheering on the bowler.
 
And what about Buzdar?

Do you think if a PM is serious about progress he would appoint someone like him to the richest and most productive province, the engine room of Pakistan?

He wasn't good enough but it shouldn't be one man show. Maryam Nawaz is unexperienced but she's managing province of over 100m people, she certainly must have a competent team for experts in decision making circles.
 
Mullah Umar tera thoko hai kia? Pay attention to what I write. Taliban movement were made of young men and boys from madrassas in Afghanistan and Pakistan who never saw Soviets, let alone fought them. Hell, huge numbers of them came from madrassas in Pakistan. Ever heard of madrassa haqqaniya?

You talk a lot, pipe it down.

Okay guys @Oscar @Taimoor please Pursukoon ho jao. The Taliban were formed by 1000s of students who studied in Pakistan maddrassas, they weren't kids but grown men who fought against soviet union, their chosen leader Mullah Umar is educated in Pakistan but fought against soviets. Taliban won Afghanistan interal mujahdeen war due to support by foreign elements, links with Pakistan religous schools. The other mujahdeens despite being majority couldn't win, they simply didn't have the resources.
 
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