Pakistan's Airborne Early Warning and Control Aircrafts

[Reichmarshal]

The PAF was always interested in a lighter (and cheaper) fighter to complement the F-16. In the 1980s, it semi-evaluated the F-20 Tigershark and Sabre-II. The evaluation team could not finish testing the F-20 because the fighter wasn't ready for weapon delivery tests, and Northrop then shelved it. The Sabre-II fell through due to US sanctions on China and rising costs.

That said, if the PAF was able to build its F-16 fleet to 150~180 aircraft, then it wouldn't need the JF-17 as we know it today. With the F-16 in play, the PAF likely would've taken the same road as Taiwan or South Korea, i.e., build something closer in size to a LIFT for point-defense and light attack roles.

Even if they had 200 f16 still PAF would always be looking over its shoulder, they were n still r sanction prone. PAF has had uts bad experience n so wanted a sanctions free ac that it would develop modify as it wished n thats where the jf 17 comes in.
PAF always has the option of buying brand new f16 with its own money but PAF wanted them to come from CSF n hence never utilized the option.

 

[GriffinsRule]

That not true infact is a total fabrication of events.
PAF bought it when it had no other option, it did its job well n gave PAF a look into a capability it never had......then PAF bought a better option on line, one which it knows inside out due to a sad event.

The Chinese systems have improved by leap n bounds over the years n at this pace of development n advancement soon the world will be playing catch up

Not factual. PAF ordered the Saab 2000 in 2006 while signed the contract for the ZDK in 2008. The reasons for ordering it and cutting the Saab order in 2007 is up for debate.
And there is no comparison with the US retiring a plane in service for decades for a new one they themselves produce.
PAF might have valid reasons to retire the ZDK early such a austerity measures or poor performance but they have not made them public yet. Hopefully it doesn't come to bite them in the butt

 

[White Privilege]

Is the news of early retirement of ZDK really true, I am having a hard time accepting it

Sometimes it's better to 'cut losses' and 'kill' a white elephant. Since, PAF is known for sticking to a platform and extracting decades out of it so it is a bit difficult to fathom, but since other surveillance equipment like the newer Erieyes,radars and sensors revealed in the PAF video have come online, the gap left by the ZDKs may have become bridgeable.....I also do believe if cheaper A2A refueling options became available, PAF would retire the Midas tanker as well, given its alleged maintenance costs.......

 

[Readerdefence]

Hi,
we all here discussing about retiring ZDK,
though whats the situation about communication between J10/JF17 link 17,
as I believe Sweden will never share their codes
with Chinese technology so how come PAF
managing this scenario
any knowledgeable member like to put some words against my post
thank you

 

[Oscar]

Hi,
we all here discussing about retiring ZDK,
though whats the situation about communication between J10/JF17 link 17,
as I believe Sweden will never share their codes
with Chinese technology so how come PAF
managing this scenario
any knowledgeable member like to put some words against my post
thank you

It’s through ground stations for now - although the JF-17 is capable of direct communication with SAAB.

 

[Quwa]

It’s through ground stations for now - although the JF-17 is capable of direct communication with SAAB.

Yep, the Erieye can handle a proprietary TDL. I think the apparent push to retire the ZDK03s now indicates that the PAF will add real-time multi-TDL processing to the Erieye.

Saab has also offered an upgrade path for older Erieye systems:

The E-99M aircraft now features an updated Erieye Radar and Command & Control (C2) systems. The aircraft will also include a new Electronic Warfare (Non-Communication - NCOM) systems, a new IFF Transponder, seven software-defined V/UHF radios, a new Mission Audio system with VoIP technology, and a new Mission Audio and Data recorder, as well as a Data Link function adapted to a new architecture. The interior of the aircraft has also seen an update to improve crew comfort and expand the operating capacity with five consoles redesigned and optimized for more efficient use of the upgraded systems.​

​

Media Center - Embraer

Embraer's Media Center: News, insights, and press releases on commercial aviation, defense & security, executive jets, and more. Filter by category and date.

embraer.com

​

23-058 has some new gear (see tailfin), so the PAF could already be getting a similar upgrade (which it could apply to the older Erieye in the coming 1-2 years).

 

[Ali Yusuf]

Yep, the Erieye can handle a proprietary TDL. I think the apparent push to retire the ZDK03s now indicates that the PAF will add real-time multi-TDL processing to the Erieye.

Saab has also offered an upgrade path for older Erieye systems:

The E-99M aircraft now features an updated Erieye Radar and Command & Control (C2) systems. The aircraft will also include a new Electronic Warfare (Non-Communication - NCOM) systems, a new IFF Transponder, seven software-defined V/UHF radios, a new Mission Audio system with VoIP technology, and a new Mission Audio and Data recorder, as well as a Data Link function adapted to a new architecture. The interior of the aircraft has also seen an update to improve crew comfort and expand the operating capacity with five consoles redesigned and optimized for more efficient use of the upgraded systems.​

​

Media Center - Embraer

Embraer's Media Center: News, insights, and press releases on commercial aviation, defense & security, executive jets, and more. Filter by category and date.

embraer.com

​

23-058 has some new gear (see tailfin), so the PAF could already be getting a similar upgrade (which it could apply to the older Erieye in the coming 1-2 years).

So to be clear, does it mean 23-058 just carries an upgraded sensor suite alongwith the standard Erieye radar, but not the Erieye-ER radar?

 

[Quwa]

So to be clear, does it mean 23-058 just carries an upgraded sensor suite alongwith the standard Erieye radar, but not the Erieye-ER radar?

tbh, I don't know how to conclude it's the Erieye-ER. This unit likely came from the 2020 contract ($160 mn), which involved at least 2 systems, i.e., $80 mn each. That would line up with the cost of the PAF's past Erieye systems.

The GlobalEye costs around $500 mn per system. Sure, you can factor out the Global Express 6000, Leonardo SAR/GMTI and EO/IR, but the price isn't going to drop by 80%.

That said, I do think the PAF's Erieye AEW&Cs are getting upgraded. Saab's been working on a program for older Erieye; perhaps they're transferring the radio comms and avionics of the new GlobalEye to older systems. There's also an upgrade path for the Erieye radar, but we just don't know what it entails.

Moreover, just because 20-058 may not be the Erieye-ER, it doesn't mean the PAF won't look at the GlobalEye down the line. Though costly, the GlobalEye offers phenomenal value; imagine a detection range of 760 km!

It'd be a huge jolt for the PAF's offensive ops planning.

With the induction of the Global Express 6000 and its conversion to the EA/ECM role, I think the PAF is keeping the door open to one day acquiring several GlobalEye systems.

Where the current Erieye would help with situational awareness over Pakistani airspace, the Erieye-ER can drive Swift Retort-type offensive ops. IMO, the future composite offensive wing could comprise a GlobalEye, a HAVA-SOJ-type EA/ECM, J-31s, and various UAV/UCAVs.

 

[studsmart]

tbh, I don't know how to conclude it's the Erieye-ER. This unit likely came from the 2020 contract ($160 mn), which involved at least 2 systems, i.e., $80 mn each. That would line up with the cost of the PAF's past Erieye systems.

The GlobalEye costs around $500 mn per system. Sure, you can factor out the Global Express 6000, Leonardo SAR/GMTI and EO/IR, but the price isn't going to drop by 80%.

That said, I do think the PAF's Erieye AEW&Cs are getting upgraded. Saab's been working on a program for older Erieye; perhaps they're transferring the radio comms and avionics of the new GlobalEye to older systems. There's also an upgrade path for the Erieye radar, but we just don't know what it entails.

Moreover, just because 20-058 may not be the Erieye-ER, it doesn't mean the PAF won't look at the GlobalEye down the line. Though costly, the GlobalEye offers phenomenal value; imagine a detection range of 760 km!

It'd be a huge jolt for the PAF's offensive ops planning.

With the induction of the Global Express 6000 and its conversion to the EA/ECM role, I think the PAF is keeping the door open to one day acquiring several GlobalEye systems.

Where the current Erieye would help with situational awareness over Pakistani airspace, the Erieye-ER can drive Swift Retort-type offensive ops. IMO, the future composite offensive wing could comprise a GlobalEye, a HAVA-SOJ-type EA/ECM, J-31s, and various UAV/UCAVs.

How does these detection range measure against 5th gen fighters or LO drones and fighters ?
These special-purpose planes will be used for the next 20 years. during that time our skys will be full of 5th gen or 6 th gen fighters

 

[Quwa]

How does these detection range measure against 5th gen fighters or LO drones and fighters ?
These special-purpose planes will be used for the next 20 years. during that time our skys will be full of 5th gen or 6 th gen fighters

I can't say, but a selling point of S-band radars (e.g., Erieye, Erieye-ER) is that they're better suited for tracking LO targets than X-band.

Surveillance measures, in general, are getting better at addressing LO threats, be it through S-band, L-band, etc radars, and ELINT like VERA and others. It's not just in Pakistan, but the whole world, from Europe to the USA to China, is working towards it.

I think the interesting twist could be if there's a future Saab AEW&C that can use both S-band and L-band radars (e.g., swap the SAR/GMTI with a miniature L-band sensor)?

LO design could one day become a baseline must-have (like AESA radars and HMD/S) rather than a decisive edge (as the US had enjoyed). Basically, if you're not LO in some way (be it as a stealthy design, composite-heavy design, etc), then you're fully exposed.

 

[studsmart]

I can't say, but a selling point of S-band radars (e.g., Erieye, Erieye-ER) is that they're better suited for tracking LO targets than X-band.

Surveillance measures, in general, are getting better at addressing LO threats, be it through S-band, L-band, etc radars, and ELINT like VERA and others. It's not just in Pakistan, but the whole world, from Europe to the USA to China, is working towards it.

I think the interesting twist could be if there's a future Saab AEW&C that can use both S-band and L-band radars (e.g., swap the SAR/GMTI with a miniature L-band sensor)?

LO design could one day become a baseline must-have (like AESA radars and HMD/S) rather than a decisive edge (as the US had enjoyed). Basically, if you're not LO in some way (be it as a stealthy design, composite-heavy design, etc), then you're fully exposed.

interesting comments but thanks. I always wonder about the future of AEWCS in 5th or further-generation air assets.

 

[Zarvan]

I wonder if the PAF will gradually reinforce the southwest with F-16s, especially if it keeps adding J-10CEs, JF-17Cs, and - possibly - J-31s to handle the east.

Actually, yes it could happen.

 

[ghazi52]

Saab 2000 - J-029
SalmanFalconsPK

 

[Reichmarshal]

The only reason why PAF phased out karakoram eagle is its high operational cost. While with the availability of saab erieye in nos. It was decided to save cost n phase out karakorum eagle.
The platform used for karakorum eagle will not see service in PAF again

 

[Reichmarshal]

To save costs further PAF is "planning" to introduce a home manufactured/assembled awacs ac based on the saab sys.