Iranian UAVs | News and Discussions

[Flotilla]

The most significant contribution of the Shahed-136 UAV is that it provides a tactical concept: "providing long-range strike capabilities at the lowest possible production cost."

This is similar to the operational concept of small UAVs and FPV drones on the Russian-Ukrainian battlefield. They have taken this operational concept to the extreme. However, this does not represent their technological advancement.

From a purely technical perspective, it is not advanced. China, the United States, and Russia do not lack these technologies themselves. Russia's cooperation with Iran to introduce the technology and production of the Shahed-136 UAV is because Russia is currently at war, and the urgent needs of the war prevent them from quickly replicating the Shahed-136 UAV on their own.

China and the United States are not at war. They do not need any technology from Iran to quickly replicate the Shahed-136 UAV themselves. If Russia were not at war, they would be capable of replicating this without any support from Iran.

BTW.
China is primarily replicating the Shahed-136 UAV for the export market. The PLA only uses a small number of them for routine combat training. We have better weapons for this tactical purpose.

For sure It is not a technical advancement. But they changed the tactics in the Battlefield to the point to make a shift in the Russian Army doctrine. They are using 600 Shaheds daily and not relying in dense artillery they used in the firsts months of the war.
Beware your assumptions. J10C is much more advanced technologically than most of 4.5 gen aircrafts but didn't make this quantum leap in tactics/strategy that Shahed did. If China PLA understimate their utility in combat field, good for them, but everybody is making low cost long range OWA drones for the Battlefield.

 

[Michael]

For sure It is not a technical advancement. But they changed the tactics in the Battlefield to the point to make a shift in the Russian Army doctrine. They are using 600 Shaheds daily and not relying in dense artillery they used in the firsts months of the war.

More accurately, the Shahed-136 UAV represents a revolution in tactical concepts, not a breakthrough in science and technology.

Because of this, it's not difficult for others to replicate it. The challenge lies in cost control.
The United States could easily replicate the Shahed-136 UAV, but they would find it difficult to reduce the cost to the same level as Iran's.
China could easily replicate the Shahed-136 UAV, and furthermore, China's costs would be even lower than Iran's.
From a development perspective, Iran should raise its competitive barriers. However, Iran lacks the capability to do so.

Beware your assumptions. J10C is much more advanced technologically than most of 4.5 gen aircrafts but didn't make this quantum leap in tactics/strategy that Shahed did. If China PLA understimate their utility in combat field, good for them, but everybody is making low cost long range OWA drones for the Battlefield.

This is a flawed assumption.

The J-10C is considered an economical fighter jet in China. It is the worst performing fighter jet currently in service with the PLAAF (People's Liberation Army Air Force). Chinese military enthusiasts jokingly call it the "airport defender." In the minds of most Chinese people, the J-10C has never been considered a leading fighter jet.
The PLAAF stopped procuring the J-10C several years ago. The earlier J-10A models have already begun the retirement process.

Currently, CAC (Chengdu Aircraft Corporation) only produces the J-10CE for export. Due to the need for promotion in the international arms market, you may see or hear a lot of Chinese media coverage of the J-10C fighter jet.

As for the Shahed-136 type of UAV, we have many ways to easily counter its attacks. ------ We can deal with it very easily. The primary purpose of the PLA's procurement of the PD2900 (the Chinese imitation version of the Shahed-136) is for daily combat training of its troops.

 

[Flotilla]

From a development perspective, Iran should raise its competitive barriers. However, Iran lacks the capability to do so.

Iran have been from more than 40 years a cornered country. Hated by neigbors and pressed by all western countries. The ferocity of the sanctions make impracticable a revolution in technology and because so... it is not possible to relieve the Economy from that harmful protectionism. I agree you at this point.

But they managed to revolutionise the war History with such concept (Shahed 136). And they did again with massive conventional ballistic missile forces. Irak didn´t, USA didn´t and Russia didn´t during all their wars. Irán did it. They achieved militar deterrence strategy against the most powerful conventional army in the middle east. For sure they did it with Chinese help. But they managed to keep out of Persian Gulf US and Israelis.

Combination of hundreds of simple liquid ballistic missiles with solid ones, with waves of combined types, designed to deplete defenses and slowly destroying with pin point accuracy the best Air defenses of the world (Arrow 3 and THAADs) is something nobody did it before. Irán has cleverly combined conventional warheads with simple satellite guidance to optical final guidance, inside atmospheric maneurovable warheads (Fatah 1, Kheybar Shekan) and cluster munitions .

We don´t know if they would eventually succeed in such way in future (I hope so). But being a society that can´t even make a simple wire transfer abroad to kick out israelis and US from the inshores makes them more than remarkable.

Hope China can do the same just in Taiwán. We will follow your success closely.

 

[Comandante]

It is interesting that the variants of the Qaher-313 drone, which is most suitable for drone hunting, are not mentioned. I think they have actually already been tested on ships and there may be plenty of experience.

 

[vizier]

It is interesting that the variants of the Qaher-313 drone, which is most suitable for drone hunting, are not mentioned. I think they have actually already been tested on ships and there may be plenty of experience.

Qaher 313 can be a loyal wingman option that can work against aircraft if the stealth is on par with MQ-28 or XQ-58. It can be controlled from the ground as well.
It is much more expensive than Shahed 238 or Hadid 110 and Karrar though. Bvr needs to be integrated into it. It cant risk wvr combat like the cheaper expandable drones. It also needs a well protected airbase to take off unlike truck launched drones.
Türkiye's Bayraktar Kizilelma and MQ-28 newly tested bvr shots with aim120 missiles. It is a difficult process and Iran needs aesa, high computing onboard the drone and a bvr missile to pull this off. I think there are some cheaper simpler options like long range infrared air to air missiles similar to R27T variants that Iran uses . These missiles can be a temporary measure before integrating better active radar guided bvr missiles.
The midcourse is the difficult part the plane needs to guide the missile towards the target by its own radar before the missile sensor activates close to the target. Command to line of sight or similar simpler methods can be used for midcourse guidance. It is enough for the initial versions of the drone to launch 1 or 2 missiles max against the targets. Simpler algorithms can be used as a temporary measure to reach bvr capability for drones more quickly.

 

[Flotilla]

Qaher 313 can be a loyal wingman option that can work against aircraft if the stealth is on par with MQ-28 or XQ-58. It can be controlled from the ground as well.
It is much more expensive than Shahed 238 or Hadid 110 and Karrar though. Bvr needs to be integrated into it. It cant risk wvr combat like the cheaper expandable drones. It also needs a well protected airbase to take off unlike truck launched drones.
Türkiye's Bayraktar Kizilelma and MQ-28 newly tested bvr shots with aim120 missiles. It is a difficult process and Iran needs aesa, high computing onboard the drone and a bvr missile to pull this off. I think there are some cheaper simpler options like long range infrared air to air missiles similar to R27T variants that Iran uses . These missiles can be a temporary measure before integrating better active radar guided bvr missiles.
The midcourse is the difficult part the plane needs to guide the missile towards the target by its own radar before the missile sensor activates close to the target. Command to line of sight or similar simpler methods can be used for midcourse guidance. It is enough for the initial versions of the drone to launch 1 or 2 missiles max against the targets. Simpler algorithms can be used as a temporary measure to reach bvr capability for drones more quickly.

Sadid 110 It is a very small drone. Its weight must be less than 20 kg.
Qaher313 we don't have any evidence of being even tested.
The best and fastest way It is just add a IRST seeker to Karrar and use them again in the next round against Israel.

 

[Michael]

Hope China can do the same just in Taiwán. We will follow your success closely.

Mainland China is very close to Taiwan Island, with the nearest point being approximately 130 km and the furthest point approximately 400 km. The entire island of Taiwan is within the firing range of the PLA's MLRS. The Shahed-136 type of UAV would be of no use in a conflict in the Taiwan Strait.

 

[vizier]

Sadid 110 It is a very small drone. Its weight must be less than 20 kg.
Qaher313 we don't have any evidence of being even tested.
The best and fastest way It is just add a IRST seeker to Karrar and use them again in the next round against Israel.

The specifications say that payload is about 30kg for hadid-110. Stinger missile variants weigh about 10kg each and 15kg with tube. A basic camera-infrared sensor can be installed to detect enemy drones on Hadid-110 for day-night missions. Shahed 238 can be installed with similar configurations. This also needs a ground radar station to control-que the drones close to the enemy drones. Russians are adding sensors on these types of drones for a while.

Karrar is better in terms of payload and can carry better longer range air to air missiles and onboard sensors. But it has high rcs and can be taken down and can still be used as an expandable asset. It is still very useful though. Also It can be used as a testbed for future ucav bvr targetting systems.

 

[ToddE]

From a purely technical perspective, it is not advanced. China, the United States, and Russia do not lack these technologies themselves. Russia's cooperation with Iran to introduce the technology and production of the Shahed-136 UAV is because Russia is currently at war, and the urgent needs of the war prevent them from quickly replicating the Shahed-136 UAV on their own.

Russia took TOT from Iran. Russian Geran is made in Russia not in Iran. Your assumption is false that Russia is at war so its taking drones from Iran. Russia had no similar weapon so they needed the unique design, as soon as they adapted it and saw its effectiveness in combat, they went with their own production.

 

[ToddE]

Karrar is better in terms of payload and can carry better longer range air to air missiles and onboard sensors. But it has high rcs and can be taken down and can still be used as an expandable asset. It is still very useful though. Also It can be used as a testbed for future ucav bvr targetting systems.

Karrar with datalink can deploy ARH/SARH BVR missile because search and track cues will come from data shared from other assets. If you deploy a PESA/AESA FCR onboard then it becomes too costly for its concept and its loss will result in valued asset depletion.

But with onboard IRST/EO seeker, Karrar can deploy WVR at full range. Without IRST/EO seeker on oboard, missile will have to use its own seeker for tracking, this reduces range by 20-25 KM (35 KM WVR will be reduced to 10-15 KM). IMO Karrar overall has potential, they should focus on IRST + Datalink. Onboard radar will just increase, weight and cost.

 

[muhammed45]

Mainland China is very close to Taiwan Island, with the nearest point being approximately 130 km and the furthest point approximately 400 km. The entire island of Taiwan is within the firing range of the PLA's MLRS. The Shahed-136 type of UAV would be of no use in a conflict in the Taiwan Strait.

Taiwan has Japan's and SK's depth. They won't remain silent when China goes to reunify its former lands. They will have USN's escort.

 

[Flotilla]

Mainland China is very close to Taiwan Island, with the nearest point being approximately 130 km and the furthest point approximately 400 km. The entire island of Taiwan is within the firing range of the PLA's MLRS. The Shahed-136 type of UAV would be of no use in a conflict in the Taiwan Strait.

Nah, I know the utility of such drone is not adequate in such scenario. I just want to see how Taiwán come back to the rule of Mainland. But that is derailing the tread.

 

[vizier]

Karrar with datalink can deploy ARH/SARH BVR missile because search and track cues will come from data shared from other assets. If you deploy a PESA/AESA FCR onboard then it becomes too costly for its concept and its loss will result in valued asset depletion.

But with onboard IRST/EO seeker, Karrar can deploy WVR at full range. Without IRST/EO seeker on oboard, missile will have to use its own seeker for tracking, this reduces range by 20-25 KM (35 KM WVR will be reduced to 10-15 KM). IMO Karrar overall has potential, they should focus on IRST + Datalink. Onboard radar will just increase, weight and cost.

Karrar is detectable so vulnurable if airspace is lost to enemy fighter aircraft. Onboard aesa would add to the expenses after each loss. So as you said practically IRST would be better for drone hunting - air defense and 35km is a decent enough range to do that. It can also reach higher altitudes than most drones.

But as a testbed for future stealth ucav programs aesa/pesa can be experimented with platforms like Qaher 313 or Karrar(if its nose and structure allows the installation). Data link with a ground radar is also a step towards this bvr direction. If the platform is low observable like Qaher 313 aesa-pesa would be a better choice giving it more range to fight enemy aircraft-drones. if it is not low observable like Karrar then to reduce expenses IRST would be a more practical deployment choice.

Ideally ground radar should be mobile and should not be kept open for a long time at the same place. After the drones take over with their own sensors it should undeploy and go to the next scanning position assuming that the previous place will be detected already and bombed later on. Onboard sensors of the drones becomes more important at the later stages of interception.

 

[Michael]

Taiwan has Japan's and SK's depth. They won't remain silent when China goes to reunify its former lands. They will have USN's escort.

Nah, I know the utility of such drone is not adequate in such scenario. I just want to see how Taiwán come back to the rule of Mainland. But that is derailing the tread.

You are not familiar with the relationships between East Asian countries, nor with their respective military capabilities.
This is also not the appropriate thread for discussing the Taiwan Strait issue.
It's not suitable to discuss this topic here.

 

[StrategicBear]

Mainland China is very close to Taiwan Island, with the nearest point being approximately 130 km and the furthest point approximately 400 km. The entire island of Taiwan is within the firing range of the PLA's MLRS. The Shahed-136 type of UAV would be of no use in a conflict in the Taiwan Strait.

Can't wait for Chinese Military to actually see some action in Modern-day Real War. Already there are reports that Chinese-made weapons serving in the Cambodian Army now in war stress had resulted in many malfuctions and defects, some even blowing up by themselves like tank barrels and MLRS launchers, causing some Westerners to ridicule "Poor Chinese Quality"...

While I have lots of things to criticize about Japan, at least they had better quality control when making all sorts of products...