Pakistan-India Conflict 2025: News Updates and Discussion

[Master Chief]

Let's just unpack your argument first. We saw hits on our bases but according to you, no evidence means we couldn't hit any Indian target.

Still, India was kind enough to agree to cease fire out of goodness of their heart, even though they had complete upper hand. Strange, isn't it?

We didn't hit a single target on purpose in 2019. This time, the damage to India was far more than any skirmish before. This conflict has shown that India has no capability advantage against Pakistan. India has not announced the total number of their losses even with a ton of evidence and they won't accept destruction of targets if we decide to release the imagery.

Bit in bold. Very very important!

Folks need to be at peace with the objective reality of the enemy we face.

They are not like other belligerents in years or eras gone by or even in the here and now. USA, Russia, Iran, Israel, Ukraine - none of these nations involved in recent hostilities behave like Hindustan does - at most, they will present mitigated losses, but they will not embarassingly outright deny them altogether.

There are psychological reasons for their unique nature, which have been discussed ad nauseam on various threads.

In short - the civilisational and nationwide inferiority complex suffered by their modern standard bearers has been passed down from generation to generation before them. Their present state is inevitable. We see it on these forum threads every day - they literally panic and scramble at the suggestion of any "L".

We deal with an entire nation of billions who are 90% willingly brainwashed into toeing the party line and the remaining 10% fearing for their lives if they deny the party line publicly and are exposed as "anti-national" or "Pakistani sympathisers" in front of their lynch mob fellow citizens.

This mentality that we are up against will not change any time soon, probably not ever.

We need to simply accept this reality and then, start using it to our advantage. The stupider their claims of divinely ordained invulnerability, the more harm that will befall them.

Imagine the economic cost alone of their efforts to suppress information. They have committed acts of political self-harm too because of their delusions of invulnerability and grandiosity - who would have thought they would be forced to ally publicly with woman-hating talibs? All because of their desperation to score ANY points against Pakistan before the year is up.

Plenty to be gained for Pakistan if we calmly build ourselves up and make idiots of them next time again.

 

[Master Chief]

If India's military is under ZERO pressure to reform or to sack incompetent seniors because of falsified conflict results, then this will work out perfectly for Pakistan.

Any competent and honest military would have sacked the likes of Chauhan and AP Singh but surely by keeping them in place works to our ultimate favour! The same old Bollywood tactics will be regurgitated. They will send men to fall off cliffs at Galwan or send bare naked Rafales to the mercy of a vertically integrated electronic BVR death trap.

Let their idiots have long and well protected careers.

 

[flyingorca]

The amount of times indians change their goal post, wont be surprised if Pakistan provided public domain satellite picture like Ukraine did of destroyed Russian S400 the indians would probably say that only trucks were destroyed.

 

[AeronautIR]

If India's military is under ZERO pressure to reform or to sack incompetent seniors because of falsified conflict results, then this will work out perfectly for Pakistan.

Any competent and honest military would have sacked the likes of Chauhan and AP Singh but surely by keeping them in place works to our ultimate favour! The same old Bollywood tactics will be regurgitated. They will send men to fall off cliffs at Galwan or send bare naked Rafales to the mercy of a vertically integrated electronic BVR death trap.

Let their idiots have long and well protected careers.

This...
Their delusions work in my favor. If they are happy with results of May conflict, good for them. They should keep the same level of readiness instead of improving anything.

 

[Oscar]

This...
Their delusions work in my favor. If they are happy with results of May conflict, good for them. They should keep the same level of readiness instead of improving anything.

They have competent officers and leadership - problem is “yes man” culture which is in Pakistan as well but for now gets suppressed on and off by a few good apples holding their fort.

If that collapses then Pakistan is in trouble too. The reason for collapse is always bypassing merit and bypassing career procedures.

Ive already outlined the advantages Pakistan retains and that is India’s need for “image”. So long as image and especially domestic Messaging overrides their introspection - you’re golden.

 

[AeronautIR]

In addition to IADS, shouldn't main bases like Saraghoda be upgraded to have multiple truly independent runways created. That makes it harder to take out the flight operations of an airbase. Saraghoda was taken out for a few hours during the conflict while runway repairs were done. If you counter that with how much Nevatim took from Iran, yet it carried on with flight operations you can see the issue the PAF has with this base.

This damage by India on Saraghoda airbase took out flight operations for hours and fighter jets on that bases were stranded until the runway could be repaired. That was a very significant issue given the type of fighters that operate from that base.


View attachment 167100

We shouldn't gloss over how hard Saraghoda was hit from a capability perspective and its flight operations ( and please don't go down the rabbit hole of pretending taxi slipways could have been used, if the intention was to ever use them in that fashion they would have been made 2x wider in the first place which they were not ... ).

Nevatim Airbase design ( there are others that are even better designed ).

View attachment 167090


I appreciate that Saraghoda is an old airbase, but it either gets upgraded with a better and more resilient new runways relative to its importance or it is capabilities are moved to a better more modern airbase. I can't imagine a runway itself costing that much either.

Just to be clear, Sargodha was not taken out for a single minute. Even from this runway, take offs are possible as the crater is 9000' down the runway.

Moreover, I don't know about taxi tracks but I have myself landed on the parallel which is officially a secondary runway. The leader had hydraulic failure and without brakes, switched off on the runway. I was low on fuel and with main runway blocked, landed on the parallel taxi track. It is a contingency practiced by all.

 

[AeronautIR]

Why is that cope?

Ok, not cope.

 

[Oscar]

Just to be clear, Sargodha was not taken out for a single minute. Even from this runway, take offs are possible as the crater is 9000' down the runway.

Moreover, I don't know about taxi tracks but I have myself landed on the parallel which is officially a secondary runway. The leader had hydraulic failure and without brakes, switched off on the runway. I was low on fuel and with main runway blocked, landed on the parallel taxi track. It is a contingency practiced by all.

I have an alternative theory regarding the “restraint” issue when it comes to messaging

Having brushed around the “idara” that lives off Fauji foundation in Pindi. The mentality that goes into who is in charge(not always the most competent) and the “secretive” attitude (which ironically also has an equal and opposite verbal loose motions problem) means that not only do you not have a common standard for information disclosure and messaging - but that it lives on the whim of individuals who might say to Sqn ldr such as you to keep your mouth shut while they might in their flow disclose stuff that you might even say “STFu!!”

This is a common fauji or rather Pakistani problems even in family dynamics.

 

[AeronautIR]

First two kills were in short time and radios were jammed or distorted ....they could not got through the kills info passed on....hence they continued the mission.

What mission? They had already bombed the targets and hence, mission accomplished.

 

[AeronautIR]

None of what you wrote is relevant .....f 16 were not used cause they lacked the offensive punch needed at this particular scenario...they were in the air though.

This is about Op Swift Retort and Maj Gen Asif Ghafoor's statement in 2019.

 

[flyingorca]

What mission? They had already bombed the targets and hence, mission accomplished.

Pakistan has over 50,000 madrassah and mosques. If they pick random locations without informing Pakistan what targets they have locked, its going to be almost impossible to stop every attack. In my book, launching cruise missiles from 400+ km range is not a huge achievement.

 

[Oscar]

I would go back and read through what I said regarding the “national energy” problem - and how that then translates into personal agency and impetus.

I am suggesting a yes or no - but like schrodingers cat in the box - can you all today swear on the lives of your family and guarantee that those on top have no levers that forces external or even internal that do not have Pakistan’s interests at heart cannot pull?

Their own lives
Their families
Their assets
Businesses
Etc

Take the order of threat and apply it out of Pakistan
What does Israel hold on US government systems using both AIPAC and other kinetic options that literally has all of US leadership weak at their knees? Not just levers on trump, but levers that can be pulled on voting banks through pastors and so on.

Now apply the same mechanics to Pakistan’s leadership and then their response capabilities.

In 2003 US energy companies wanted the oil and at the end the Iraq war happened. Look at the levers then.

Now more to operations.
65 is stated as a PAF victory but if you really look into it then it was a defeat.
Your primary offensive was stalled by a dithering commander who had yet settle into the job, aircraft readiness delayed it further and finally the execution was partial , mistimed other than two strikes which you celebrate and your bomber crews that kept a pressure up on an adversary that was barely doing better than a flying club.

You lost your top flyers to this. Then you made planning mistakes that still left bases exposed leading to losses on the ground.

Compare that to today - lets say you did not really hit the S-400 but if its unit commander decided it was better to pack it up and disperse than you did suppress it.

If most of your stand off weapons did little damage and the drones were lost to SHORAD - the least you demonstrated was freedom of operation in Indian airspace whereas they were boasting of being some iron curtain.

Im not saying you need to circle jerk each other off, but to see what worked - what didn’t or is simply unknown(like how did you have near real time intel from IAF bases in Kashmir without satellites in 2019? Was somebody quietly on the ground?)

 

[AeronautIR]

I have an alternative theory regarding the “restraint” issue when it comes to messaging

Having brushed around the “idara” that lives off Fauji foundation in Pindi. The mentality that goes into who is in charge(not always the most competent) and the “secretive” attitude (which ironically also has an equal and opposite verbal loose motions problem) means that not only do you not have a common standard for information disclosure and messaging - but that it lives on the whim of individuals who might say to Sqn ldr such as you to keep your mouth shut while they might in their flow disclose stuff that you might even say “STFu!!”

This is a common fauji or rather Pakistani problems even in family dynamics.

This is a Pakistani problem e.g. in education system where teacher gives shut up call to students just because he can. It doesn't matter if teacher is wrong and student is right.

Same in all offices, whether civil or fauji that boss is always right. So if they say it is a secret, it becones a secret even if Indian Air Marshal shows AMRAAM debris on live TV.

 

[puttputt]

relax, you can always have the satisfaction of saying "I told you so" if Indians do some actual damage to us in future. Till then, no need to inflate the threat out of proportion.
They are a far bigger country and yet can't destroy a single PAF aircraft, not in air or ground. No need to self-flagellate because it seems improbable that we got the better of Indians.
And just a suggestion for Indians: continue the fight next time if you are winning.

The PAF got the better of the Indians on the opening night, but they did pivot their strategy and showcased how they can erode our defensive posture via BrahMos strikes.

The next time the Indians want to ratchet up the situation, they likely won't bank on the IAF but, instead, launch preemptive missile strikes in mass against us. They know they can break through our IADS with just enough scale, so they'll leverage that and hit the PAF while it's on the ground.

Indians win when they fight like snakes, like they had in 1971. It'll be the same the next time UNLESS we take the offensive from the start and knock out their missile TELs as they're mobilizing.

 

[AeronautIR]

The PAF got the better of the Indians on the opening night, but they did pivot their strategy and showcased how they can erode our defensive posture via BrahMos strikes.

The next time the Indians want to ratchet up the situation, they likely won't bank on the IAF but, instead, launch preemptive missile strikes in mass against us. They know they can break through our IADS with just enough scale, so they'll leverage that and hit the PAF while it's on the ground.

Indians win when they fight like snakes, like they had in 1971. It'll be the same the next time UNLESS we take the offensive from the start and knock out their missile TELs as they're mobilizing.

Now I am getting a bit tired of this hypothesis about Indians can destroy us next time.
They can't. We inflicted more damage on them and it doesn't matter who believes it or not.