PAF Conducts Successful Test Launch of Taimoor ALCM

[JamD]

I think we are missing a key point here
Manufacturing facilities are designed according to product demand.
We are literally talking about manufacturing facilities that were designed to produce strategic weapons which are required in low numbers.
Only recently our focus shifted towards conventional weaponary production at home.
Now we have multiple designs to produce but our old style manufacturing facilities are not helping.
@JamD talking with my limited Industrial experience,companies put profit margin of at least 35% for things as simple as automotive coatings, some premier products are even sold at 50% pm.
And here we are talking about R&D intensive defence products.
For me ,If the Taimur can get the job done , military needs to put the money in shop floor.
Instead of buying SOM, it will be more productive to get Turkish help in expanding our production capabilities.

Exactly right. I have been saying this a lot too. All of our missiles have been strategic programs, which needed low numbers due to the limited number of warheads. Now it is a different ballgame, which we are bound to struggle with since we've deindustrialized as a country.

 

[AeronautIR]

I know it was in jest but that is where the problem lays. Pakistani military personnel, by and large, have never recognized their actual place in the country, both as an organization and as individual servicemen. Despite immense sacrifices and services otherwise, this has lost them public goodwill over and over again in a society that is not known to measure its responses. No officer holds any authority to tolerate or not tolerate anything coming from civilians, except in his/her civilian capacity.

Firstly, it wasn't about military officers only. Otherwise, I would have said generals. So include any minister or bureaucrat with decision-making powers. I don't agree it is most apparent in militay. But it will definitely look like something else if taken out of context so let me explain it further.

The argument was about my personal experience here. You can go and see those posts about "who are you? What you have done for country? We will build an industrial base for Pakistan and employ the youth."

If I go to any office, civil or military, and tell them if they follow my plans, Pakistan will be far better. For any of multiple reasons, they disagree with me. Instead of working on my pitch or convincing them with data and practical solutions, I call them stubborn idiots.

If you think anyone will take my thoughts seriously after this, I am happy to share incidents from USA where plans were rejected due to "badtameezi" of speakers.
What Are Generals Made Of, Boyd, Pentagon Wars and many more books are full of such tales.

Now, in all developing and post-colonial countries, this issue is further exacerbated due fragile ego of seniors. I have myself paid the price of disagreeing with commanders. Sometimes I was right, but sometimes it was also about my ego too. If I have still not able to communicate clearly, I can explain further.

I have no delusions of superiority of military mindset over all. But honestly, what I have seen here is superiority of learned civilians over ignorant faujis. That disrespectful attitude is what I was talking about. I am here to learn about things that I don't know, and will only add to those threads that are related to my expertise.

 

[puttputt]

Exactly right. I have been saying this a lot too. All of our missiles have been strategic programs, which needed low numbers due to the limited number of warheads. Now it is a different ballgame, which we are bound to struggle with since we've deindustrialized as a country.

I think with Fatah and AZB, there are signs that investments are being made to increase production capacity. However, it'd be a mistake IMO to push all this to the public sector or SOEs; how exchequer can only handle so many pensions.

Pakistan lacks many things, but it doesn't lack capital. Unfortunately, capital tends to either get shuttled out or dug into the dirt (via real estate). If we fix the incentives structure, even marginally, some of that money can flow into boosting our private production capacity, which can help scale REK and LACM production up to the necessary levels without burdening NESCOM.

I actually would prefer NESCOM remain as an R&D bureau, with a much stronger emphasis on design, development, studies, etc. The ideal would be for NESCOM to do foundational work years or decades ahead of requirements, and when it is time, it licenses out the know-how to the private sector to productize.

For ex., foundational MALE UAV design work happens at NESCOM, but the actual product gets designed, built, and sold by a private company. For each MALE UAV sold by said private company, NESCOM pockets a commission (for licensing out the know-how for foundational tech). Incentive structures now push NESCOM to double down on R&D and produce more IP (without cost burden of production), while private investors skip R&D and move to product and production.

 

[side-winder]

Now, in all developing and post-colonial countries, this issue is further exacerbated due fragile ego of seniors. I have myself paid the price of disagreeing with commanders. Sometimes I was right, but sometimes it was also about my ego too. If I have still not able to communicate clearly, I can explain further.

Every junior Flg Off / Flt Lt privately curses his OC / Flt Cdr. You have done it. I have done it. Basically every officer does it.

But then again, when someone in Junior ranks (JCOs / NCOs) does some badtameezi with you, even if he is right. You ofcourse lose your calm due to that same "fragile ego".

Every senior has a senior and every junior has a junior - so basically everyone behaves more less in similar fashion in military setups.

However, exceptions always there. Some people are actually very "CH" types and their reputation as such spreads like wild fire all over the organization and some really keep their patience no matter what.

With respect to the civilians - yes, there is a sort of superiority complex among the military men. And likewise, the civilians nowadays also think of most military men as "12 pass jaahil".

I don't know why we can't just learn to respect each other. We all come from same society and we all have our own roles to play. So perhaps, bit of mutual respect should always prevail instead of stupid grudges across the baord for everyone.

 

[AeronautIR]

Every junior Flg Off / Flt Lt privately curses his OC / Flt Cdr. You have done it. I have done it. Basically every officer does it.

But then again, when someone in Junior ranks (JCOs / NCOs) does some badtameezi with you, even if he is right. You ofcourse lose your calm due to that same "fragile ego".

Every senior has a senior and every junior has a junior - so basically everyone behaves more less in similar fashion in military setups.

However, exceptions always there. Some people are actually very "CH" types and their reputation as such spreads like wild fire all over the organization

We are part of this society and know these realities quite well. I have actually seen it everywhere, including this forum and that is why I disagree that it is most apparent in military. The fact that I was thrashed for my opinions as being a "Yes Man" further proves my point.

 

[MS Sandhu]

I think with Fatah and AZB, there are signs that investments are being made to increase production capacity. However, it'd be a mistake IMO to push all this to the public sector or SOEs; how exchequer can only handle so many pensions.

Pakistan lacks many things, but it doesn't lack capital. Unfortunately, capital tends to either get shuttled out or dug into the dirt (via real estate). If we fix the incentives structure, even marginally, some of that money can flow into boosting our private production capacity, which can help scale REK and LACM production up to the necessary levels without burdening NESCOM.

I actually would prefer NESCOM remain as an R&D bureau, with a much stronger emphasis on design, development, studies, etc. The ideal would be for NESCOM to do foundational work years or decades ahead of requirements, and when it is time, it licenses out the know-how to the private sector to productize.

For ex., foundational MALE UAV design work happens at NESCOM, but the actual product gets designed, built, and sold by a private company. For each MALE UAV sold by said private company, NESCOM pockets a commission (for licensing out the know-how for foundational tech). Incentive structures now push NESCOM to double down on R&D and produce more IP (without cost burden of production), while private investors skip R&D and move to product and production.

Production Teams need extensive R&D support on shop floor.
This model is not going to work in my opinion.

 

[krash]

Wasn't directing it at yourself or your comment, just a tangent I picked further given the previous discussion here.

Firstly, it wasn't about military officers only. Otherwise, I would have said generals. So include any minister or bureaucrat with decision-making powers. It will definitely look like something else if taken out of context so let me explain it further.

No doubt. The security guard holds the same MO over his two parking spots. It's a societal trait amplified with power and authority.

The argument was about my personal experience here. You can go and see those posts about "who are you? What you have done for country? We will build an industrial base for Pakistan and employ the youth."

If I go to any office, civil or military, and tell them if they follow my plans, Pakistan will be far better. For any of multiple reasons, they disagree with me. Instead of working on my pitch or convincing them with data and practical solutions, I call them stubborn idiots.

If you think anyone will take my thoughts seriously after this, I am happy to share incidents from USA where plans were rejected due to "badtameezi" of speakers.
What Are Generals Made Of, Boyd, Pentagon Wars and many more books are full of such tales.

Now, in all developing and post-colonial countries, this issue is further exacerbated due fragile ego of seniors. I have myself paid the price of disagreeing with commanders. Sometimes I was right, but sometimes it was also about my ego too. If I have still not able to communicate clearly, I can explain further.

I have no delusions of superiority of military mindset over all. But honestly, what I have seen here is superiority of learned civilians over ignorant faujis. That disrespectful attitude is what I was talking about. I am here to learn about things that I don't know, and

You're in shock because you've maybe never experienced this before but it's an open Pakistani forum on the internet. You shouldn't take most of it seriously.

We are truly grateful for your service, even if at times we can't separate it from the rest of the going-ons. And we greatly look forward to hearing from your experiences, sometimes to then dismiss them outright for inexplicable reasons.

will only add to those threads that are related to my expertise.

No need as long as you wade in with your shalwar pulled up a little.

 

[Toxic]

Production Teams need extensive R&D support on shop floor.
This model is not going to work in my opinion.

This would be a starter setup as these private manufacturers absorb the Know how about these systems they can do Rnd on their own designs.

@JamD do these Issues of low production also persist with the Fatah Series or have they setup infrastructure for proper Mass production?

 

[krash]

Every junior Flg Off / Flt Lt privately curses his OC / Flt Cdr. You have done it. I have done it. Basically every officer does it.

But then again, when someone in Junior ranks (JCOs / NCOs) does some badtameezi with you, even if he is right. You ofcourse lose your calm due to that same "fragile ego".

Every senior has a senior and every junior has a junior - so basically everyone behaves more less in similar fashion in military setups.

However, exceptions always there. Some people are actually very "CH" types and their reputation as such spreads like wild fire all over the organization

With respect to the civilians - yes, there is a sort of superiority complex among the military men. And likewise, the civilians nowadays also think of most military men as "12 pass jaahil".

It's an absolute necessity in the military given its dependence on the hierarchical command structure. You can't have a jawan questing his superior's command when bullets are flying, even if that means losing sound advice at times. Cadets are broken down and then re-built for it on the subconscious level. There is a specific term for it in psychology which, for the life of me, I cannot remember. Unfortunately, it is also incompatible with civilian life and inevitably causes friction. Most of the world circumvents this by completely sidelining their veterans, which is another shame.

I don't know why we can't just learn to respect each other. We all come from same society and we all have our own roles to play. So perhaps, bit of mutual respect should always prevail instead of stupid grudges across the baord for everyone.

You've answered your own question; because we all come from the same society. Disassociating individual issues and judging them on their own merit will work. As most things Pakistani, easier said than done.

 

[Asif]

SUPARCO is full of political appointees.
2014 when China was asking Pakistan to build Beidou support and augmentation infrastructure in Pakistan , the department at SUPARCO responsible of running these projects had a lady as the head.
I tried to contact her to get an update about the projects. I found out that she's on a long leave , most probably with full pay, and gone to Canada, and all projects are on hold. She was actually doing her time in Canada for getting PR leading to immigration, while also being the head of a department at SUPARCO.

Don't expect much from SUPARCO.

Suparco is an interesting case, at least amongst the organization's that I am aware off. another example is Suparco offshot i.e. Stingray. Anyone who had a taya, chacha and mama stayed on Suparco and everyone else (including some brilliant minds) moved to a new company with a contract on lower financial terms or unclear path ahead. Needless to say, loss for suparco or defence production or ultimately the nation.
This is an endemic problem as the same has happened at other places with a big name and expectations associated with it.

 

[Falcon26]

IMO, there's even a decent chance that the PAF will import ALCMs (be it from China or Turkiye) because, simply put, we cannot scale Ra'ad/Taimoor, even if the PAF (and I'm sure it does) wants to adopt Ra'ad/Taimoor in numbers.

The issue is that we cannot scale up production of our CMs to the numbers necessary for operational deployment. For proof, we need only look at our situation with drones. We have Shahpar 2 Block-2 and Shahpar 3 coming; however, the PAF procured Wing Loongs, TB2s, Akincis, while the PN and PA inducted the CH-4. Even when the armed forces want the system (such as Shahpar-series drones), the domestic production base can't scale.

It goes back to the same issue...how much are we going to dump on the plates of NESCOM or even PAC? NESCOM is R&D, and PAC is MRO; neither one was created for industrial-scale production.

If the PAF is serious about wide-scale ALCM deployment (and I'm sure it is seeing the investment the armed forces are making in InSAR satellites, as that will feed into high-fidelity mapping data, route-planning, etc), then I think we'll see the JF-17 loaded with a Chinese CM-XX or Turkish SOM/-J or even that Chakkar/Cakir missile.

However, if we want to scale up, we'd need to bring companies like Atlas Motors or Millat Tractors into the loop because they have some real-world knowledge of scaling up and down for demand. But for them to suddenly enter into munitions production, they'll need investment and tooling, and that will only come if we facilitate Turkish FDI into the private sector (that might help push the CNCs and other equipment into Pakistan as it would be Turkish-owned or co-owned with a local subsidiary).


Ra'ad, Taimoor, and Rasoob 250 can be 3X better than the Turkish ALCMs for all we care, but we'll only ever make 30 units a year. Our requirements, OTOH, would be 300+ (and soon) if we intend to leave more than sh!stains in India for Maxar to pick up. Our SOEs can't scale to those production levels.

Which makes me think, why doesn’t Pakistan invite Turkish defense firms, ask them to set up local subsidiaries or partner with Pakistani private/public firms and contract them to build whatever conventional products you want? The military gets a top of the line NATO-standard product, the local firms can absorb new technology, improve their facilities and manufacturing processes and the Turkish firms get another reliable market. Everyone wins!

I mean the same way American firms are contracted to build whatever products the Aussies, UK, Canada need through their local subsidiaries?

@JamD

 

[Corax]

Which makes me think, why doesn’t Pakistan invite Turkish defense firms, ask them to set up local subsidiaries or partner with Pakistani private/public firms and contract them to build whatever conventional products you want? The military gets a top of the line NATO-standard product, the long firms can absorb new technology, improve their facilities and manufacturing processes and the Turkish firms get another reliable market. Everyone wins!

I mean the same way American firms are contracted to build whatever products the Aussies, UK, Canada need through their local subsidiaries?

@JamD

If only you were in charge of the Pak military industry!

 

[JamD]

@JamD do these Issues of low production also persist with the Fatah Series or have they setup infrastructure for proper Mass production?

First answer I do not know. For Azb series we have seen Qaswa so that we know is being produced at some scale. Fatah series maybe yes maybe no, I don't know.

Which makes me think, why doesn’t Pakistan invite Turkish defense firms, ask them to set up local subsidiaries or partner with Pakistani private/public firms and contract them to build whatever conventional products you want? The military gets a top of the line NATO-standard product, the long firms can absorb new technology, improve their facilities and manufacturing processes and the Turkish firms get another reliable market. Everyone wins!

I mean the same way American firms are contracted to build whatever products the Aussies, UK, Canada need through their local subsidiaries?

@JamD

@Quwa has spoken about this a lot. Our planners don't realize they'll actually be richer if they followed the Turkish model. Unfortunately, our babus suffer from incompetence and an inflated sense of self that forces them to have the "I can do it" attitude when they don't have the capacity. Unfortunately, when you call out their incompetence they:
1. Go into denial
2. Claim you're a traitor and spy
3. Claim you don't respect all the work they've done for you
4. Shut you up with threats that are carried out to you and your family if you make too much noise (if you happen to be inside an SPD org - I know of several horror stories)

 

[side-winder]

Well, we'll see what this newly created Rocket Force brings to table. I am sure they didn't just create this force to hand them over few conventional weapons in limited numbers -- so to launch early in the conflict and then to sit idle -- twiddling their thumbs and watching the enemy keep throwing their missiles --- Mass production of conventional missiles will take it's due attention from the higher ups and hopefully things are already moving in right direction - including PAF too.

 

[JamD]

Well, we'll see what this newly created Rocket Force brings to table. I am sure they didn't just create this force to hand them over few conventional weapons in limited numbers -- so to launch early in the conflict and then to sit idle -- twiddling their thumbs and watching the enemy keep throwing their missiles --- Mass production of conventional missiles will take it's due attention from the higher ups and hopefully things are already moving in right direction - including PAF too.

Exactly! I'm super excited about what happens in terms of Pakistan's defense industry. Also, I feel like there's a bit of inter-service rivalry at play here as well - it is no secret that the PAF takes the lead on all things and works out pretty nicely (Balakot, 7th May) and the army ends up sitting there "twiddling their thumbs" as you say.

EDIT: A stopgap while the local production spins up might be procurement.